England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

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England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by skully on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 00:51

1st of 3 Tests before a slew of one day tosh.

Hard to see the Ganjas bothering England too much. Could be a few 3 day Tests coming up.

Will Jennings/Westley/Malan get the flick for England?
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by Basil on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 07:47

Westley should be okay and Malan has had only two games, so I reckon they will both play. Jennings on the other hand is walking a tightrope.

Don't be surprised if Woakes plays ahead of Roland-Jones, he's fit again.

First test is under lights - so expect a seam-bowling fest.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by skully on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 00:13

SO who is likely to be next in line if Jennings is jetisonned?
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by PeterCS on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 02:43

Stoneman seems the most likely. Burns possibly.

Hameed is not on song, (but/and) they probably can't wait for him to be so.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by PeterCS on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 02:48

Basil wrote:Westley should be okay and Malan has had only two games, so I reckon they will both play. Jennings on the other hand is walking a tightrope.

Don't be surprised if Woakes plays ahead of Roland-Jones, he's fit again.

First test is under lights - so expect a seam-bowling fest.  

Seems a fair summary.

Personally, I'd "rest" Jennings. Further failure might damage him for good; and even if he cashes in on one of the weakest attacks (wait for it ...) in Test cricket at the moment, that might be flattering to deceive with Oz in the offing. It's time for someone else to get used to the top level.

Malan I'd give one more Test, at most two. No point in him hogging the #5 spot if his confidence and flair is in LO cricket. Hales at #5? Let's see how he continues in that new role for Notts. We don't want another flash (to first slip) in the pan.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by skully on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 03:19

PeterCS wrote:Stoneman seems the most likely. Burns possibly.

Hameed is not on song, (but/and) they probably can't wait for him to be so.

795 runs at 61.15 looks fair numbers for Mr Stoneman.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 11:25

Yeah, I think Jennings has had long enough for the time being, they need to roll the dice one more time. What happens if the next man fails abjectly though, could the captain be forced to sacrifice himself up top?

Malan has looked out of his depth and although two matches isn't very generous, I think we maybe have seen enough in this case. Older debutants have to hit the ground running, there's no investment in the future with someone about to turn 30, you can't mould them into something they're not already.

I see Damien Fleming has been rubbishing the England top order, he'd clearly fancy bowling against them or even batting better than them... think there might be a bit more turnover before the Ashes squad is picked.

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by skully on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 12:15

Possibly the worst thing England could do it pick Jennings and maybe Malan and allow them to make a score or two against the much weaker WI. This would play into Aus hands.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by lardbucket on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 12:24

Although both Jennings and Malan will probably prefer Australian wickets to those dished up in the UK.

I reckon Jennings is gone, though.  Can't see them ditching TRJ after his fairly stunning start.

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by taipan on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 13:15

I guess the question is, do England have anyone better than Jennings and Malan?
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by Basil on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 13:20

taipan wrote:I guess the question is, do England have anyone better than Jennings and Malan?

Hameed
Stoneman
Clarke
Hales (middle-order)
Bell-Drummond

To name but five. I'd happily include Buttler but his appearances / form in red ball cricket this season don't warrant him being considered.

Having said that, we already have three number fives - but they happen to be occupying the following three slots.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by taipan on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 13:25

Basil wrote:
taipan wrote:I guess the question is, do England have anyone better than Jennings and Malan?

Hameed
Stoneman
Clarke
Hales (middle-order)
Bell-Drummond

To name but five. I'd happily include Buttler but his appearances / form in red ball cricket this season don't warrant him being considered.

Having said that, we already have three number fives - but they happen to be occupying the following three slots.

So the next question is why are they not being picked?

Is this the same Hameed that I keep reading here has scored no runs this summer? And the same Hales that failed as an opener?
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by Basil on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 14:10

taipan wrote:
Basil wrote:
taipan wrote:I guess the question is, do England have anyone better than Jennings and Malan?

Hameed
Stoneman
Clarke
Hales (middle-order)
Bell-Drummond

To name but five. I'd happily include Buttler but his appearances / form in red ball cricket this season don't warrant him being considered.

Having said that, we already have three number fives - but they happen to be occupying the following three slots.

So the next question is why are they not being picked?

Is this the same Hameed that I keep reading here has scored no runs this summer? And the same Hales that failed as an opener?

If Hales does come back, it will be at number five. I wouldn't rule it out, he's scoring runs for fun in the middle-order for Notts where he has played most of his red-ball cricket. I don't think he did himself any favours at The Oval last season when he made that childish crying gesture towards one of the Pakistani batsmen

I know a bit about Clarke being a Worcestershire player. He's a delight to watch when going (think Ian Bell) but he's always struck me as being too inconsistent, but his time will come, I'm sure of it

Stoneman ticks quite a few boxes - he was quite successful at Durham as an opener on pitches which can be quite sporting, but at 30 - he is probably as good as he's going to get.

If they drop Jennings, and they have every reason too, I think they'll cross their fingers and pick Hameed. My guess is that the selectors would like a left hand / right hand partnership at the top, and Hameed most certainly looked the part in India.

As to why they haven't played yet, Bayliss has openly admitted that his philosophy is to give players one game too many rather than one game too few.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 14:11

Well, most of these alternatives may or may not be better. As I've said before, pretty much all the "chosen ones" have fallen by the wayside so we're left with a pin-sticking exercise. There's nobody making an irresistible case in county cricket. But it's not hard to improve on averages of 17 and 8 respectively, even if we just picked the JAMODI sloggers!

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by taipan on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 14:17

Basil wrote:
taipan wrote:
Basil wrote:
taipan wrote:I guess the question is, do England have anyone better than Jennings and Malan?

Hameed
Stoneman
Clarke
Hales (middle-order)
Bell-Drummond

To name but five. I'd happily include Buttler but his appearances / form in red ball cricket this season don't warrant him being considered.

Having said that, we already have three number fives - but they happen to be occupying the following three slots.

So the next question is why are they not being picked?

Is this the same Hameed that I keep reading here has scored no runs this summer? And the same Hales that failed as an opener?

If Hales does come back, it will be at number five. I wouldn't rule it out, he's scoring runs for fun in the middle-order for Notts where he has played most of his red-ball cricket. I don't think he did himself any favours at The Oval last season when he made that childish crying gesture towards one of the Pakistani batsmen

I know a bit about Clarke being a Worcestershire player. He's a delight to watch when going (think Ian Bell) but he's always struck me as being too inconsistent, but his time will come, I'm sure of it

Stoneman ticks quite a few boxes - he was quite successful at Durham as an opener on pitches which can be quite sporting, but at 30 - he is probably as good as he's going to get.

If they drop Jennings, and they have every reason too, I think they'll cross their fingers and pick Hameed. My guess is that the selectors would like a left hand / right hand partnership at the top, and Hameed most certainly looked the part in India.

As to why they haven't played yet, Bayliss has openly admitted that his philosophy is to give players one game too many rather than one game too few.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't buy into the R/L philosophy
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 14:21

They maybe overplay it a bit, but having an excess of either does make it hard to neutralise certain bowlers. We have seemed to be overrun with left-handers in recent years which is the opposite of the traditional imbalance (and most of them bowl/throw right-handed I think!)

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by taipan on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 14:25

beamer wrote:They maybe overplay it a bit, but having an excess of either does make it hard to neutralise certain bowlers. We have seemed to be overrun with left-handers in recent years which is the opposite of the traditional imbalance (and most of them bowl/throw right-handed I think!)

We did an analysis of this some years back. IIRC correctly only 10% of the population is right handed but left handlers make up something like 40% of top order batsmen. Most of them are naturally right handed.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by tricycle on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 16:16

Looking forward to see how the West Indian bowlers go here. With Joseph, Gabriel and Holder they have the making of a promising bowling lineup. Also, Chase being their Moeen. The batting OTOH...

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by skully on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 00:20

IS Warnie's favourite Marlon Samuels in the squad?
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by tricycle on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 04:35

He's not, thankfully.

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by Basil on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 17:49

England's squad:

Cook
Stoneman
Westley
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Roland-Jones
Broad
Anderson
Crane

Jennings, Dawson and Finn all dropped.







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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by Basil on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 19:22

I wonder how the conversation between Dawson and Crane went:

Dawson - "well done qunt."

Crane - "Piss off loser."
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by skully on Fri 11 Aug 2017, 00:06

SO Stoneman gets his go against a much less threatening bowling line up than the SAffers. If he's got any ability it should see him on the boat to Australia.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by PeterCS on Fri 11 Aug 2017, 12:07

I think Stoneman is the sensible pick.

That's not to say he will fire - you never can tell, until you've tried - but it's a rational choice.

Some might say 30 is not looking ahead. Well, if he works out, from an opener that's a possible 5 or 6 years of a Test career, which is longer than some.

And as for the West Indies attack providing an untesting Test ... maybe so, we'll see. But in such cases, as with anyone, but particularly openers, it's not so much the immediate weight of runs that is the litmus test. It's how he shapes up, his approach, the security of his technique, whether he shows the confidence in defence and attack.

I hope Hameed will come back into the frame before too long. As noted elsewhere, he made his first sizeable score the other day since his "hand incident" - match sadly rained off before he had the chance to complete the ton - and time will tell. Competition for places is always good, as long as you make the right noises to those concerned. And #5 is far from settled yet, #3 not certain. I suppose Westley could play at 5, etc.

All too far off.

Good choice of Stoneman, even if he fails.

As for Crane - well, that's a surprise. He has had a stint down under, so presumably that's what the selectors are eyeing up. But he's quite callow for a spinner at the top level.

Woakes back in the squad. I presume that means, if he passes fitness tests, he'll be straight back in, and TRJ stood down to "the bench". If so, hope man management & psychology have moved on with England, and they don't just give him a "Yer out, sunshine!". If he doesn't play, I'm not sure how that affects his chances of a berth for the Ashes squad.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by Lindsay no.2 on Fri 11 Aug 2017, 18:34

PeterCS wrote:I think Stoneman is the sensible pick.

That's not to say he will fire - you never can tell, until you've tried - but it's a rational choice.

Some might say 30 is not looking ahead. Well, if he works out, from an opener that's a possible 5 or 6 years of a Test career, which is longer than some.

And as for the West Indies attack providing an untesting Test ... maybe so, we'll see. But in such cases, as with anyone, but particularly openers, it's not so much the immediate weight of runs that is the litmus test. It's how he shapes up, his approach, the security of his technique, whether he shows the confidence in defence and attack.

I hope Hameed will come back into the frame before too long. As noted elsewhere, he made his first sizeable score the other day since his "hand incident" - match sadly rained off before he had the chance to complete the ton - and time will tell. Competition for places is always good, as long as you make the right noises to those concerned. And #5 is far from settled yet, #3 not certain. I suppose Westley could play at 5, etc.

All too far off.

Good choice of Stoneman, even if he fails.

As for Crane - well, that's a surprise. He has had a stint down under, so presumably that's what the selectors are eyeing up. But he's quite callow for a spinner at the top level.

Woakes back in the squad. I presume that means, if he passes fitness tests, he'll be straight back in, and TRJ stood down to "the bench". If so, hope man management & psychology have moved on with England, and they don't just give him a "Yer out, sunshine!". If he doesn't play, I'm not sure how that affects his chances of a berth for the Ashes squad.

Keen to see this Stoneman guy - and I agree with you Peter if he's good enough then I'd happily take 5 or 6 years, especially given the current carousel of opening partners for Cook. Did I hear it was something like 12 partners for him since Strauss retired.

Also agree with you - we ought to beat W.I. comfortably but we have a habit of struggling to put them away. Is that arrogance/complacency on our part?

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