How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

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How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Henry on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 06:32

Well I’ve been off the forum for the last couple of months. Thankfully so it would seem after the drubbing England have suffered.

Where to now for England then? Personally, I think the selectors need to be sacked immediately. What were they thinking going into a tour of Australia with five right arm medium pacers who rely purely on seam and swing?? They needed at least SOMEONE with a bit of zip. Or a left armer. Preferably both. What did they expect to happen? That Australia would prepare green seamers, it would be overcast, and they’d sportingly agree to use the dukes ball?? Utter f*cking madness and short-sightedness. Lazy selecting, really.

Moeen is also a shambles. It was never going to last. The man is a batsman who bowls a bit. It’s ingrained in him. It was always a long shot hoping he’d become a world class spinner. He just doesn’t have the mindset, or the talent for that matter, to match the likes of Ashwin or even Lyon as we have seen.

Root’s captaincy started promisingly in Brisbane, but has descended into ordinary and formulaic. No imagination, and I suspect he’s struggling to step out of the long shadows cast by Anderson and Broad. I don’t think he’ll ever be his own man with those two in the team.

I think it’s time to bite the bullet and jettison one of either Broad or Anderson. On current form it would have to be Broad. What a great bowler he’s been for England, but signs are he is past his best, the match winning spells aren’t coming anymore, and his batting, save for the odd cameo like in Melbourne, has become an embarrassment and a poor example to younger members of the side. I remember when Peter Moores bit the bullet and ditched Harmison and Hoggard on a tour of NZ in 2007-08, ironically for Anderson and Broad. It was a controversial decision but Ultimately it led to us regaining the ashes in 2009 with Anderson and Broad at the forefront. There always has to be one eye on the future, and perhaps it’s time to take a punt on a Jamie Overton, George Garton, Olly Stone, or Tom Helm.

Obviously Stokes was a massive loss. He probably wouldn’t have prevented this result, unless he did a Botham 81 or Flintoff 05, but he would have added fight, mongrel, and some spine.

Cook probably has a couple of years left in him. Contrary to popular belief, he actually favours the slow, low pitches these days, rather than quick bouncy pitches where he constantly nicks off.

James Vince and Mark Stoneman still have a lot of unanswered questions surrounding them, despite a few impressive knocks this series. Vince in particular is frustrating in the extreme. He is clearly ridiculously talented, yet constantly finds unusual ways of getting out when well set. If he fails twice at Sydney, that should be it for him until he can put together a stack of runs for Hampshire. Stoneman has shown guts, but has ultimately flattered to deceive. A test average in the late 20s at this stage puts him alongside the likes of Hales and Lyth as failed opening partners for Alastair Cook.

Thoughts?
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Aditya on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 06:39

Has any team made such a song and dance about primacy of test cricket with so little to show in the format?

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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Henry on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 06:41

I forgot to say- serious, no troll responses only.....
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Aditya on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 06:44

Aside from that caveat, you *also* forgot England's hysterical test cricket record over the past, hold your breath, 3 decades.

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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Henry on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 06:58

Who do you support, exactly?
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by lardbucket on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 08:04

some thoughts

Stoneman's series is more like Carberry's than either Hales or Lyth. He's shown a fair bit and I hope the English selectors stick with him.

It's probably a waste of time expecting any finger spinner to come to Australia and do well ... there's really only been Ashwin overcome the 'visiting spinners curse' in the last twenty years or more.

Agree with your comments re the English bowlers - too 'samey'. Anderson and Overton have been the best. Broad has bowled maybe two decent spells.

Bairstow and Malan have done well. Pass marks.

Root and Cook (apart from the MCG knock, obviously) have been very disappointing.

Stokes (in for Ball, Overton, Curran) would definitely have made a difference.


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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Henry on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 08:10

Yes, Stoneman’s series has been reminiscent of Carberry in 13-14. Unfortunately for Carberry, he was 34 at the time so they decided not to stick with him. He also picked up hos unfortunate illness which meant he couldn’t fly.
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by taipan on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 08:25

Henry wrote:Yes, Stoneman’s series has been reminiscent of Carberry in 13-14. Unfortunately for Carberry, he was 34 at the time so they decided not to stick with him. He also picked up hos unfortunate illness which meant he couldn’t fly.

Bird flu?
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Henry on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 08:29

Here, take your coat.....
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by krikri on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 11:05

The system is failing to produce players good enough to play at the highest level at the moment. The ones that can play at the highest level never do so consistently enough.

One of our so called 'best ever' batsmen in Cook goes through barren years, not just series, but years. How many times have people spoke about him being dropped? He's never been able to rectify the technical problems that he has had since he came into internetional cricket.

Broad has all the capabilities to be successful, but just doesn't perform. How many times has he bowled short, got hammered, bowled fuller in the next match, taken wickets, said he bowled too short the previous match and then in the match after his success has gone back to bowling short?



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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Red on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 11:56

Okay English cricket has its problems, but the Windies would still look in envy.

The old criticism always focussed on the county system - too many teams diluting talent etc. Now with two tiers this may be remedied to some extent.

In essence though, England is still a handful on home soil, but like many other teams, travels poorly.

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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Henry on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 11:59

I don’t think it’s a case of not providing players who are good enough. Certainly if you take the last 10-15 years as a whole. In that time we’ve produced Our leading run scorer and wicket taker of all time in test cricket. We also produced world class players like Swann, Strauss, Flintoff, Bell, Broad, Prior, Root, Stokes....and some more. Perhaps despite the system rather than because of it, we are able to produce world class players.

I just think that once again the joy has been sucked out of English cricket. Again.  Suddenly. Remember 2015 when it was all gung-Ho, brave, exciting cricket after the oppression of Peter Moores’s second stint? Well it seems like we’re back to joyless cricket again. We’re content to bowl ‘dry’ and field an attack of 80mph merchants, whilst relying on rookie batsmen to mostly poke, prod, and clunk their way to a half decent total. I just think we need to recognise flair and talent a bit more once again,  rather than “good blokes” and safe cricketers like Chris Woakes, who, nice lad that he no doubt is, has absolutely no flair about him whatsoever. An absolute product of the English system who’s ticked all the boxes over the years, but at the end of the day isn’t really all that good. But he keeps getting picked because he’s a solid citizen. And England keep lingering around mid table mediocrity in the rankings......
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by krikri on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 12:51

6 of Strauss's 9 years playing for England he averaged 35.. There were only 3 years where he averaged over 40 for the year.

Flintoff had 2 good years in a career that spanned 9 or 10.

I like a lot of those players, but I don't think world class careers are made out of a couple of consistent years and then sporadic performances around those.
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by horace on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 19:37

Interesting discussion. A serious welcome back to Trev.

I agree with the comments about the English bowling. Military medium is only competitive here when it is called Anderson and is a point of difference in a varied pace attack. There is a real sameness to the current pace battery. I feel for Moeen. The fields set for him were very passive and indicated a lack of confidence in him.

Cook and Root have been disappointing. Trev was spot on about Cook's preference for low slow pitches. His days of international quality performances on a regular basis. Root had a poor tour last time here and has been only marginally better this time.

However there is an upside for England. Malan has been terrific and has batted with grit and flair. Bairstow has been an efficient and safe keeper and has been an ace in the middle order. Both have excelled against decent bowling. Stoneman has had a Carbs tour, showing admirable grit. Vince has also showed enough to suggest he is a long term proposition.

Anderson aside the English attack has been the worst to tour here for a long time. It has flattered the Oz batting, Seasick Steve aside.

The 3-0 result thus far is not a fair reflection. Oz is simply not that good. We have decent and varied bowling and one world class batsman. I expect The Saffies will flog this side in the upcoming series. 3/0 simply reflects home conditions in a series between two mediocre teams.
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Red on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 01:53

England itself is aware of the need to produce express bowlers, particularly in terms of succeeding in conditions like these.

Hard to know whether their lack of this kind of bowler is because of the style of English pitches, or something endemic in the system militating against the development of genuine pace.

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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Bradman on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 02:42

What's the problem if you're a pom. The minute Aussies touch down at Heathrow they start to tremble and crumple like cheap suits. And at least you've won an away series here in the last decade.
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Henry on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 04:22

Bradman wrote:What's the problem if you're a pom.  The minute Aussies touch down at Heathrow they start to tremble and crumple like cheap suits.  And at least you've won an away series here in the last decade.

Unfortunately I think a lot of teams have this attitude these days- “never mind if we. Lose in their backyard, we’ll stuff them once they come here”. It all becomes a bit tit for tat, and no team progresses and excels themselves. South Africa have been the best at winning away from home over the last 10 years.
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Bradman on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 04:26

Henry wrote:
Bradman wrote:What's the problem if you're a pom.  The minute Aussies touch down at Heathrow they start to tremble and crumple like cheap suits.  And at least you've won an away series here in the last decade.

Unfortunately I think a lot of teams have this attitude these days- “never mind if we. Lose in their backyard, we’ll stuff them once they come here”. It all becomes a bit tit for tat, and no team progresses and excels themselves. South Africa have been the best at winning away from home over the last 10 years.

My point and yours I think.
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by beamer on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 08:16

Stoneman has probably done enough to earn a bit longer, we’ve tried pretty much all the alternatives...

Vince has displayed exactly the failings everyone knew he would. Poor man’s Vaughan/Bell, get rid.

Moeen - obviously speaking before we’ve seen Crane bowl, he could have a Kerrigan debut or a Swann one, but we haven’t got a world class spinner and are unlikely to find one. So forget about playing a designated spinner, play our best six or seven batsmen and the chances are one will be able to turn his arm over. If Moeen fits that criteria as a batsman then he stays in.

Seam attack - We need Broad and Anderson until 2019 if they’re fit. But we have to develop genuine pace in the next generation. Take a punt on a young bowler or two and look to mould them into Test players, rather than picking 80mph bowlers who average 25 in county cricket (but would average double that on flat decks abroad).

There’s talent in this England Test setup but some massive holes. It could go either way over the next few years, a few finds and we could be up there, a few retirements without adequare successors and we could be a distant seventh or eighth in the rankings.

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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by OP Tipping on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 13:35

Well let's not overstate it. They are a top-4 team in all three forms of the game.

In the ODIs they won 15 out of 20 matches in 2017, and reached the semis of the Champions trophy.

In Test cricket, they just came off series wins against the Windies and South Africa. Jimmy is one of the very best pacemen around. Cook and Root, not withstanding recent disappointments, are genuine class.



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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Nath on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 21:50

they'll beat NZ and go back home for their home Tests, perform well and everything will be right as rain.
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by Henry on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 23:35

I’m not so sure we’ll beat NZ on their own turf.....
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by horace on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 03:07

Henry wrote:I’m not so sure we’ll beat NZ on their own turf.....

Aye. Carn the Snoozies!
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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by beamer on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 18:22

Not sure we’re a top 4 Test side.

Who would we beat over a hypothetical series with 3 matches at home and 3 away? India, Australia, Pakistan - probably not. SA, NZ - a coin-flip (assuming full strength Yarpie side, they would probably edge it). SL, WI, Ban and the minnows - yes. So realistically we’re in the range 4th to 6th.

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Re: How do you solve a problem like English cricket?

Post by skully on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 21:08

It seems to me that the English tour really suffered from the Ben Stokes Affair, destabilising confidence before the series even started.

The turning point of this series may well have been Lyon's run out of Vince in his 80s in Brisbane. It's pretty much been all downhill for England from there.

Cook and Root's non-performance has been a big factor, plus the lack of back up for Jimmeh and Sturat (who himself has largely been disappointing). Overton looks like he has the gumption to be a good Test no. 3 bowler, but England really need to unearth a quality offie in the mold of Embers or Edmonds. I hope Mason Crane has some success and is allowed to develop into a decent Test leggie.
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