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England v Australia, 5xODIs + 1xT20, 13-28 June, 2018

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furriner
Merlin
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Post by Nath Sun 17 Jun 2018, 06:10

skully wrote:So Bog did his bit but nobody else showed up.

Andrew Tye's 81 runs conceded (in 9 overs) was a bit Mick Lewis FFS-ish.

did you see Mick Lewis lost the record for most runs conceded in ODIs the other week?
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Post by skully Sun 17 Jun 2018, 06:45

Irish chicks don't count.
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Post by Bradman Sun 17 Jun 2018, 07:27

Skully you're a qunt you understand that
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Post by Bradman Sun 17 Jun 2018, 07:28

Skully you're a qunt you understand that?

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Post by skully Sun 17 Jun 2018, 10:21

I heard you the first time, Q.
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Post by beamer Sun 17 Jun 2018, 10:29

So I guess the strongest England ODI team would be:

Roy
Bairstow
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Willey
Plunkett
Rashid

6 bowling options and bats right down to 11 (infinitely many variations in the batting order possible!) Obviously Hales on form could come back into the top three if required. Probably worth trying another “engine room” batsman at some stage, and we do lack a genuine strike bowler.

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Post by PeterCS Sun 17 Jun 2018, 23:03

Merlin wrote:My ha'penny worth :

Re: Sledging - there are none better than the Aussies at this particular pastime - they are world class. The sandpaper issue has swung the pendulum in favour of England at this juncture, though whether they will grasp the mettle and use it against the "old enemy" remains to be seen - no sign of it so far as everyone's on their best behaviour. I personally believe that it should be allowed to continue.

Personal Abuse :  Another kettle of fish altogether. The most outstanding exponent of this was one Merv Hughes. A mediocre bowler who made up for his lack of skills by shouting abuse at - and invariable spitting - yes, spitting, in the direction of the opposing batsmen he was targeting. Hughes/Hick anyone?
I believe this aspect of the game ought to be stamped out …. from all accounts from our Australian friends, Warner was dragging it back into the game.

Brexit :  Pete's  probably the biggest load of toxic bullshit is a singular opinion which flies in the face of the majority (1.75 million) who voted in favour of Brexit.


How one comes around to describing something as "toxic bullshit" without first experiencing it, without first seeing it at work; based  purely on the face of the EU's staunch opposition to the UK leaving (now why is that, I wonder? perhaps triggering a mass exodus??) ; based upon peoples musings and moanings at the fact that they were on the losing side … it all beggars belief.
So how to change that?
Continue moaning; continue "demanding" a "best of three" referendums; insisting on a change of government; spoiling due process and basically flying in the face of the majority of voters with their continuing groans, moans and bleating.

That there, in a nutshell, is Brexit's toxic bullshit, Pete!
The Remoaners, who, one way or another, obstruct and refuse to let due process take place in their fervent belief that THEY ARE RIGHT.

Germany 1930 anyone?


That's it … I'm now off to Cardiff !

Merlin - I think we can at least agree that beginning to debate Brexit at any length here might be a waste of our own, each other's and any other readers' time.

I'll just note that:

a) it's already pretty evident what Brexit means for British society, in terms of cohesion, in terms of economic trends, in terms of truculence, in terms of toxic debate or "debate";

and

b) you seem to base all your weight of argument on the fact of a narrow majority vote for an unknown package on 23 June 2016 - as if that day should be packed in ice and hallowed for ever more - at any cost (on many levels), regardless of what has come to light since (with regard to illegal practices, assurances shown to be hollow and vapid planless pigs released from pokes), and - not least - disregarding how people may feel and think subsequently.

The "Will of the People" - as if "ThePeople" were one, uniform, unchanging, unthinking, unfeeling person, condemned to permanent suspended animation and forcible obedience - is a demagogic slogan of extremely murky provenance, the most striking example being:

England v Australia, 5xODIs + 1xT20, 13-28 June, 2018 - Page 3 Will_o10

.... and as for the old chestnut "people voted for it on that day, so it must be right (and complied with)":

England v Australia, 5xODIs + 1xT20, 13-28 June, 2018 - Page 3 Ad_pop10
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Post by PeterCS Sun 17 Jun 2018, 23:10

beamer wrote:So I guess the strongest England ODI team would be:

Roy
Bairstow
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Willey
Plunkett
Rashid

6 bowling options and bats right down to 11 (infinitely many variations in the batting order possible!) Obviously Hales on form could come back into the top three if required. Probably worth trying another “engine room” batsman at some stage, and we do lack a genuine strike bowler.

It's really hard to say - as consistency is not exactly England's strong point. (See Roy's sudden renaissance in Cardiff.) But that XI might be, generally, about as good as any at the moment.

As you say, oh for a fearsome strike bowler (e.g. Plunkett five years younger and fit!) (Or Wood with a wee bit more precision.)

There seem to be a few 19/20-year-olds coming through in the batting - would be tempted to give one of them a strike if one of the above shows signs of a slump in form (and not just one bad innings).
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Post by Merlin Mon 18 Jun 2018, 10:30


Merlin - I think we can at least agree that beginning to debate Brexit at any length here might be a waste of our own, each other's and any other readers' time.

I'll just note that:

a) it's already pretty evident what Brexit means for British society, in terms of cohesion, in terms of economic trends, in terms of truculence, in terms of toxic debate or "debate";

and

b) you seem to base all your weight of argument on the fact of a narrow majority vote for an unknown package on 23 June 2016 - as if that day should be packed in ice and hallowed for ever more - at any cost (on many levels), regardless of what has come to light since (with regard to illegal practices, assurances shown to be hollow and vapid planless pigs released from pokes), and - not least - disregarding how people may feel and think subsequently.

The "Will of the People" - as if "ThePeople" were one, uniform, unchanging, unthinking, unfeeling person, condemned to permanent suspended animation and forcible obedience - is a demagogic slogan of extremely murky provenance, the most striking example being:

Pete -
Agree re lengthy debate, especially as we appear to be poles apart!


A majority, be it one or 1.7 million, is a majority, whether you like it or not.

Clearly the Remainers do not like it, as ALL the bleating, since the referendum was lost, has come entirely from that camp.
How they plan on destroying Brexit; how they plan on reversing the "next" referendum; how they plan on disrupting due process... the list is endless, and supported in the main by those whose interests lie specifically within the EU and not the UK.
What happened to the Remainers predictions of a total collapse in the UK economy?
What happened to the most outrageous Remainers prediction of World War III ?
What happened to the prediction that the UK's unemployed would soon reach10 million?
FEAR … that is all the Remainers banked on post referendum … instilling unashamed fear in the population.
Shame!

Your fall back on the Sceptic Dictionary to define the will of the people serves you no merit whatsoever Pete.
To refer to the populace who voted for Brexit, amongst other things, as 'insecure' and 'guilt ridden' and 'joining forces with uncritical thinkers' is proof in itself of the contempt Remainers have for Brexiteers, and this, for me, is the crux of the matter.
Whereas Brexiteers tolerate their counterpart Remoaners as misguided sheep, with Tony Blair as their shepherd!
Oh dear …

What and who gives you Remainers the God given right to proclaim that your lot are the chosen ones ... always correct, BEFORE, as I stressed in my last post, the due process and final outcome is attained.
What makes you so secure in your belief that it will all fall apart?
Why are Remainers so damned aloof and patronising in their dealings with Brexiteers?
Are you aware of the undertones in Belgium, the Nederlands, Austria  Italy and parts of Germany (yes! Germany) to start an unwinding process that would take these nations out of the faltering EU ?  
And the near bankruptcy of nations like Spain, Portugal, Ireland and, of course Greece?
Three nations GIVE to the EU, the rest, 23 (?) of them, TAKE from it.
And once the likes of Turkey and Israel and all points east of Suez are invited to join the juggernaut, watch out!

As I said in my last post, the reason the EU are making life difficult for the UK is simply because, our departure would inevitably trigger a mass exodus from the EU, and once Merkel goes, the rock becomes a bog!
Slowly but surely, several nations borders are being shored up against the refugee influx …
what does this tell you?

Perhaps a new thread ought to be started on this volatile subject ... like you, I believe the debate will rage on.
I often wonder whether Brexiteers would have kicked up such a fuss had they lost the referendum.
Somehow, I doubt that very much.
The will of the people and all that .... sceptical dictionary or otherwise!
Anyway, that's my lot on the subject.
I live in the fervent hope that due process will be attained eventually and that we re-group as a nation thereafter.

On a lighter note, I was at Cardiff on Saturday … nail-biting and wet.
The Aussies have the bowling, but sadly, bar one or two, do not have the batting.
England, however, have the batting, but, bar two, do not have the bowling.
That summarises the Cardiff escape in a nutshell!

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Post by lardbucket Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:27

England v Australia, 5xODIs + 1xT20, 13-28 June, 2018 - Page 3 45960500

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Post by PeterCS Mon 18 Jun 2018, 15:07

Maddeningly perhaps, J Vince has played a cracking innings today (F50 semi-final vs Yorks).

Because of his - it seems - temperamental unsuitability for Test cricket, I'd forgotten him as a one-day option. But that's where he seems to come into his own... It appears once the pressure of responsibility to build a long innings is off, he has the technique and application to make a biggish or bigger innings quickly.

At the same time, not sure quite where he'd fit into the decent "two-keeper" batting lineup beamer suggests above:

You've got to have six fairly reliable bowlers - reliable either not to leak runs, or to take wickets, or preferably, both - and a seventh reasonable option as a backstop, in case it all goes Pete Tong.
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Post by taipan Mon 18 Jun 2018, 18:38

PeterCS wrote:Maddeningly perhaps, J Vince has played a cracking innings today (F50 semi-final vs Yorks).

Because of his - it seems - temperamental unsuitability for Test cricket, I'd forgotten him as a one-day option. But that's where he seems to come into his own... It appears once the pressure of responsibility to build a long innings is off, he has the technique and application to make a biggish or bigger innings quickly.

At the same time, not sure quite where he'd fit into the decent "two-keeper" batting lineup beamer suggests above:

You've got to have six fairly reliable bowlers - reliable either not to leak runs, or to take wickets, or preferably, both - and a seventh reasonable option as a backstop, in case it all goes Pete Tong.

7 bowlers?

This is where it has always gone the pear shape for England and pick the bits and pieces players
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Post by PeterCS Mon 18 Jun 2018, 19:05

No, definitely *NOT* just odds and sods!

In a 50 overs format (arguably even T20) you need not only 5 who can bowl to make up the quota overs at all, you need a sixth for the possibility of flexible end changes, changes in bowling/fielding plans, adjustments to the possible changing state of the match, tactics of the batting side. Six who can bowl (well) is to me a sensible bare minimum.

But the seventh up your sleeve. At least to a level of, say, a Root. As I tried to explain above.


The problem of "bits and pieces" is not having too many bowlers, but not good enough players.
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Post by PeterCS Mon 18 Jun 2018, 19:19

Point being that I am not confident Vince is by any means an international-class bowler.

In a team with Morgan, two (non-bowling) keepers (so to speak), and Roy - or Hales in that mix somewhere - and also Vince - Root would always have to be sixth bowler. That's a bit of a teeth-gritter.
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Post by taipan Mon 18 Jun 2018, 19:30

PeterCS wrote:No, definitely *NOT* just odds and sods!

In a 50 overs format (arguably even T20) you need not only 5 who can bowl to make up the quota overs at all, you need a sixth for the possibility of flexible end changes, changes in bowling/fielding plans, adjustments to the possible changing state of the match, tactics of the batting side. Six who can bowl (well) is to me a sensible bare minimum.

But the seventh up your sleeve. At least to a level of, say, a Root. As I tried to explain above.


The problem of "bits and pieces" is not having too many bowlers, but not good enough players.

Absolute horseshit.

You have four main bowlers and two who can make up the other ten. If you need to go to a seventh you are in deep shit anyway.

The old saying that bowlers win tests and batsmen win ODI's still stands.

England have been notorious for picking bits and pieces players
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Post by beamer Mon 18 Jun 2018, 20:38

Yeah, you don’t pick your batsmen based on having a seventh bowler. If you really don’t fancy having to bowl 10 overs of spin, play 5 seamers and one spinner.

With a Plunkett or Rashid at 11 we’re not short of batting, the only reason for another specialist is for injury cover/rotation/pressure on the incumbents. Billings isn’t doing that, but to be fair to him the commentators pointed out that he hasn’t had a decent run of games in any side/format in recent times, and would probably have been better off playing for his county rather than mostly carrying the drinks in this series.

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Post by taipan Mon 18 Jun 2018, 20:58

beamer wrote:Yeah, you don’t pick your batsmen based on having a seventh bowler. If you really don’t fancy having to bowl 10 overs of spin, play 5 seamers and one spinner.

With a Plunkett or Rashid at 11 we’re not short of batting, the only reason for another specialist is for injury cover/rotation/pressure on the incumbents. Billings isn’t doing that, but to be fair to him the commentators pointed out that he hasn’t had a decent run of games in any side/format in recent times, and would probably have been better off playing for his county rather than mostly carrying the drinks in this series.

That three of your top seven Nats are keepers also doesn't make it easy to pick seven bowlers.
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Post by Merlin Mon 18 Jun 2018, 21:39

Seven bowlers?
Really?!
England are fine with their batsmen (including Root who doubles up as the 6th bowler, if and when needed.)

Roy and Bairstow.
Hales, Root, Morgan and Buttler.
Then Stokes and Woakes (both off crocked) - so Tom Curran.
Followed by Ali, Plunkett, Rashid and Willey.

Drop Willey when Stokes  returns.
Five/six bowlers and eleven batsmen!
That ought to do it!

Billings isn't ready yet, perhaps for a T20 or two, but not ODI cricket.
Give him another year.

Vince should not be allowed within 5 miles of an ODI stadium, except to watch the game from the stands.
His 'fine' knock today against Yorkshire in the RLI was played on a road with short boundaries - against four dibley doblers and a part time offie.

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Post by Big Dog Mon 18 Jun 2018, 23:54

[quote="Merlin"]


On a lighter note, I was at Cardiff on Saturday … nail-biting and wet.
The Aussies have the bowling, but sadly, bar one or two, do not have the batting.
England, however, have the batting, but, bar two, do not have the bowling.
That summarises the Cardiff escape in a nutshell!

We don't even have that. This is very much a 2nd X1 attack but you are right about our batting. Our weakness against spin is culpable.
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Post by horace Tue 19 Jun 2018, 06:56

[quote="Big Dog"]
Merlin wrote:


On a lighter note, I was at Cardiff on Saturday … nail-biting and wet.
The Aussies have the bowling, but sadly, bar one or two, do not have the batting.
England, however, have the batting, but, bar two, do not have the bowling.
That summarises the Cardiff escape in a nutshell!

We don't even have that. This is very much a 2nd X1 attack but you are right about our batting. Our weakness against spin is culpable.

Our bats are not used to spin. In the absence of GOAT, our bats only get face Jelly in the nets and he's not a spinner's aperture. Jelly does have one attribute that is right in cbnlg's wheelhouse. He plays for the Warpies.
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Post by PeterCS Tue 19 Jun 2018, 15:01

taipan wrote:
PeterCS wrote:No, definitely *NOT* just odds and sods!

In a 50 overs format (arguably even T20) you need not only 5 who can bowl to make up the quota overs at all, you need a sixth for the possibility of flexible end changes, changes in bowling/fielding plans, adjustments to the possible changing state of the match, tactics of the batting side. Six who can bowl (well) is to me a sensible bare minimum.

But the seventh up your sleeve. At least to a level of, say, a Root. As I tried to explain above.


The problem of "bits and pieces" is not having too many bowlers, but not good enough players.

Absolute horseshit.

You have four main bowlers and two who can make up the other ten. If you need to go to a seventh you are in deep shit anyway.

The old saying that bowlers win tests and batsmen win ODI's still stands.

England have been notorious for picking bits and pieces players

Do you think "absolute horseshit" is not a bit splenetic, in the context of a debate about best configurations of ODI lineups?
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Post by Big Dog Tue 19 Jun 2018, 15:06

Jeez our bowlers are crap
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Post by PeterCS Tue 19 Jun 2018, 15:19

beamer wrote:Yeah, you don’t pick your batsmen based on having a seventh bowler. If you really don’t fancy having to bowl 10 overs of spin, play 5 seamers and one spinner.

With a Plunkett or Rashid at 11 we’re not short of batting, the only reason for another specialist is for injury cover/rotation/pressure on the incumbents. Billings isn’t doing that, but to be fair to him the commentators pointed out that he hasn’t had a decent run of games in any side/format in recent times, and would probably have been better off playing for his county rather than mostly carrying the drinks in this series.

Fairly put.

But I wasn't saying you omit a 'proper' batsman to play someone who can also be relied on to bowl a serviceable couple of overs, if needed.

Putting out 5 players who (pretty much, for current purposes) can't bowl may leave you a bit short, was rather my point.

Root can offer such overs, Malan at a pinch too, ... Mo more obviously. ...

but putting out any five of Morgan, Hales, Roy, "2 keepers", & Vince (we started with the 2 keepers and I then queried Vince on top of that) - not sure, unless they are guaranteed to post monster scores every time, and/or all bowlers are guaranteed to be in top form and are 100% niggle-free.

It's just a point of view. I'm not making it anything like my last hill, hedge or ditch to die on/in.

And I'm certainly not yelling, or attempting to shout down other views.  I appreciate beamer's alternative take, and see its merits.


Last edited by PeterCS on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 15:31; edited 1 time in total
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Post by PeterCS Tue 19 Jun 2018, 15:29

Big Dog wrote:Jeez our bowlers are crap


Who's going to be the first to say "momentum" ? Wink


Not momentum, ... but rising/falling confidence does count for quite a bit (with individuals and teams).

Oz's relative lack of experience seems also to be taking a toll at the moment. In a team that's lost two. i.e. Aussie bowling a bit raw at (arguably) the second-highest level in the game.

You may be right if saying a couple of them are not up to snuff. But they'd kill for a Hazlewood, Cummins or Starc in this game, for example. Or maybe all three.

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Post by Guest Tue 19 Jun 2018, 16:32

Goodness me Australia needed that! 500 was looking on.

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