Islam - what is it all about?

Whilst my stance is still the same, I do feel very sorry for the children whose psychotic parents are taking them over to Syria. Growing up in England they would have a great chance at a normal life and their parents are robbing them of that. Their chances of living a normal happy life are slim to say the least.

The worst thing about IS is that they don't even try to hide their brutality, they are proud of it. The videos of decapitations and of burning people alive is what seems to be attracting a lot of people to go over there.

Most historically awful groups at least tried to hide their barbarism. Nazi propaganda was very anti-Jewish but I don't believe they put out posters or films of the genocides that were taking place.

The sickos that like this stuff and think it is not only acceptable but a good thing, I hope they all leave this country, I don't want to have them anywhere near me. But they shouldn't be allowed to take their children with them, it's awful when they do.

Thankfully there are millions of Muslims who don't like the idea of decapitations and burning innocent people alive and I've obviously no problem with them staying but the ones that find it acceptable can f*ck right off. Makes me so upset and angry.

vilkrang wrote:Whilst my stance is still the same, I do feel very sorry for the children whose psychotic parents are taking them over to Syria. Growing up in England they would have a great chance at a normal life and their parents are robbing them of that. Their chances of living a normal happy life are slim to say the least.

The worst thing about IS is that they don't even try to hide their brutality, they are proud of it. The videos of decapitations and of burning people alive is what seems to be attracting a lot of people to go over there.

Most historically awful groups at least tried to hide their barbarism. Nazi propaganda was very anti-Jewish but I don't believe they put out posters or films of the genocides that were taking place.

The sickos that like this stuff and think it is not only acceptable but a good thing, I hope they all leave this country, I don't want to have them anywhere near me. But they shouldn't be allowed to take their children with them, it's awful when they do.

Thankfully there are millions of Muslims who don't like the idea of decapitations and burning innocent people alive and I've obviously no problem with them staying but the ones that find it acceptable can f*ck right off. Makes me so upset and angry.

Of course there is a large body that claim that IS are simply following the edicts in the Koran....and of course the Islam apologists claim the 'three M defense' ....Misquoted, Misread, Misunderstood.
I think the real truth lays in the body count.

vilkrang wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33169436

So with all of these families up and moving to Syria, and the press coverage they are receiving, my question is...

WGAF?

Surely it's better that extremists leave and don't stay here?

I mean yeah, they will get there and realise that living in a 3rd world, war torn shit hole probably isn't as great as living in a 1st world country where personal freedom, electricity and running water are normal, but f*ck 'em, it's their choice.

I can't go along with that, vilks.

I agree that if all you get is media and political hand-wringing and sanctimoniously heated air, that is not going to make matters better. Or - on their own - Home Secretary warnings, either.

But I think you have to look at lives, welfares, life opportunities and public safety at risk, and (without hand-wringing) at effects on the social fabric, too.

I think more work needs to be done to counter the growth of such abominations "at the root". Five ways that come to mind:

Better psychology, better analysis of what exactly the alienation factors are in the UK, for example. Too many have this or that pat solution. But what are such young people (in some cases children - so a legal duty of care there) rebelling against? Is it - as appears to be so in some cases, on the evidence I've seen - a prescriptive lack of nurture and excessive orthodoxy without outlet valves in their own upbringing and religious environment, that drives them to want to get out, into something exciting, something thrillingly alive (while murdering others) and ideally, short-lived on earth?

Better exposure - not least in schools - of what IS is, where it comes from, how it is utterly lacking in glamour or heart or compassion (and summarily murders those who change their mind and try to desert that glorious band they are so enthusiastically decamping to join and murder for/bear kids to).

Encouragement to Muslims opposed in principle to radicalism (- and butchery) to use associations and initiatives to counter the dehumanising, de-empathising agents that recruit for such bands of glorious despair, both "on the ground" and online. Some of this is FINALLY starting to occur, in reaction to the defections to IS and nausea generally at IS rises. (Three examples: 1) INSPIRE http://www.wewillinspire.com/tag/islamic-society/ 2) Muslim Youth League UK http://news.stv.tv/west-central/315605-muslim-youth-league-uk-declares-jihad-against-islamic-state/ 3) the work of such as Shahid Malik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid_Malik (who was on Brillopad's late show last night, and surprisingly hugely impressed El Portillo.)

Invitation to those who DO manage to escape from IS - whether refugees or former, disillusioned/sickened adherents - to publicise clearly what IS is REALLY about, and where possible also what - despite problems - European societies can offer that is more life-affirming

And of course, better attempts unforcibly and unthreateningly to integrate Muslims (and others) in UK society. Which (see S Malik) means dropping stand-offish "political correctness" and (lame) "tolerance" of anti-social, psychologically deformative behaviour in favour of proper empathy and respect for diverse views. But also means in the shaping of educational policies, social policies - and economic policies too.


Before anyone says it: yes, I'm quite aware that all of the above is capable of being hi-jacked by the manipulative psychopaths, "borderlines" (the psychiatric term)  and narcissists. But I'm not suggesting we all close our eyes and say,okay, job done, "Che sera, sera".

According to Sky the other night thay are moving their families as their Mullahs, or whatever, are preaching that the UK government is going to forcibly convert the children.

PeterCS wrote:

vilkrang wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33169436

So with all of these families up and moving to Syria, and the press coverage they are receiving, my question is...

WGAF?

Surely it's better that extremists leave and don't stay here?

I mean yeah, they will get there and realise that living in a 3rd world, war torn shit hole probably isn't as great as living in a 1st world country where personal freedom, electricity and running water are normal, but f*ck 'em, it's their choice.

I can't go along with that, vilks.

I agree that if all you get is media and political hand-wringing and sanctimoniously heated air, that is not going to make matters better. Or - on their own - Home Secretary warnings, either.

But I think you have to look at lives, welfares, life opportunities and public safety at risk, and (without hand-wringing) at effects on the social fabric, too.

I think more work needs to be done to counter the growth of such abominations "at the root". Five ways that come to mind:

Better psychology, better analysis of what exactly the alienation factors are in the UK, for example. Too many have this or that pat solution. But what are such young people (in some cases children - so a legal duty of care there) rebelling against? Is it - as appears to be so in some cases, on the evidence I've seen - a prescriptive lack of nurture and excessive orthodoxy without outlet valves in their own upbringing and religious environment, that drives them to want to get out, into something exciting, something thrillingly alive (while murdering others) and ideally, short-lived on earth?

Better exposure - not least in schools - of what IS is, where it comes from, how it is utterly lacking in glamour or heart or compassion (and summarily murders those who change their mind and try to desert that glorious band they are so enthusiastically decamping to join and murder for/bear kids to).

Encouragement to Muslims opposed in principle to radicalism (- and butchery) to use associations and initiatives to counter the dehumanising, de-empathising agents that recruit for such bands of glorious despair, both "on the ground" and online. Some of this is FINALLY starting to occur, in reaction to the defections to IS and nausea generally at IS rises. (Three examples: 1) INSPIRE http://www.wewillinspire.com/tag/islamic-society/ 2) Muslim Youth League UK http://news.stv.tv/west-central/315605-muslim-youth-league-uk-declares-jihad-against-islamic-state/ 3) the work of such as Shahid Malik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid_Malik (who was on Brillopad's late show last night, and surprisingly hugely impressed El Portillo.)

Invitation to those who DO manage to escape from IS - whether refugees or former, disillusioned/sickened adherents - to publicise clearly what IS is REALLY about, and where possible also what - despite problems - European societies can offer that is more life-affirming

And of course, better attempts unforcibly and unthreateningly to integrate Muslims (and others) in UK society. Which (see S Malik) means dropping stand-offish "political correctness" and (lame) "tolerance" of anti-social, psychologically deformative behaviour in favour of proper empathy and respect for diverse views. But also means in the shaping of educational policies, social policies - and economic policies too.


Before anyone says it: yes, I'm quite aware that all of the above is capable of being hi-jacked by the manipulative psychopaths, "borderlines" (the psychiatric term)  and narcissists. But I'm not suggesting we all close our eyes and say,okay, job done, "Che sera, sera".

Anyone who is attracted to videos of beheadings and people being burned alive can f*ck off. Sorry if you disagree.

There will always be psychos, you can't ever get rid of all of them. But the less we have in this country the better so I'm all for the ones who love gruesome executions to get as far away from me as possible.

A pre-view of a speech to be made by David Cameron today.

LINK

Mr Cameron will say: “The cause is ideological. It is an Islamist extremist ideology: one that says the West is bad and democracy is wrong, that women are inferior and homosexuality is evil.

"It says religious doctrine trumps the rule of law and Caliphate trumps nation state, and it justifies violence in asserting itself and achieving its aims. The question is: how do people arrive at this world view?

“I am clear that one of the reasons is that there are people who hold some of these views who don’t go as far as advocating violence, but do buy into some of these prejudices – giving the extreme Islamist narrative weight and telling fellow Muslims 'you are part of this’.

It's time Muslims stopped blaming everyone but themselves for the predicament they and their families find themselves in.

I'm sorry Pete - but Psychology, Exposure, Encouragement and Better Understanding as you suggest are all very laudable .... but it's a TWO WAY STREET. Muslims live in a Western society - they either accept it or else they move away.

The quiet acceptance of hatred against Westerners enhancing the edicts of Islam as professed by the mullahs and supported (whether knowingly or otherwise) by the vast majority of Muslims, whether "decent" citizens or not, is the fundamental cause of the drift towards ISIL by "innocent families".

And no, it is not the fault of the UK authorities.

I'm with Vilks and Merlin on this. If you don't want to fit in, you can fark off.

Would just like to add that I did read your post Pete but the problem is not a lack of education about what IS is. They proudly boast of their executions online and show videos of them. No one is under any illusion as to what they are and the barbarism that they perform.

Anyone who sees the videos that they proudly display and thinks "I want to be a part of that" is not a person I want living near me. I feel desperately sorry for anyone who might become their victim once they go to Syria and start the butchering that they long for but as horrendous as it is I would rather they do it in Syria than in England (with the best 3rd option of course being they don't kill anyone at all but that isn't the world we live in unfortunately).

vilkrang wrote:
Anyone who is attracted to videos of beheadings and people being burned alive can f*ck off. Sorry if you disagree.

There will always be psychos, you can't ever get rid of all of them. But the less we have in this country the better so I'm all for the ones who love gruesome executions to get as far away from me as possible.

Where did I say that?

My point was partly that you can try to displace the problem elsewhere, perhaps shunt it off to other countries and try to lock all the doors (imagining there are no false passports, no grudges stoked, and you've cracked it). But how? Where would you start? Where would you finish?

Merls - I see your point(s). But perhaps you've heard the saying "Know your enemy"? If you don't focus on where and who the enemy is - AND how the mainpulators get at those susceptible or prone to grooming/manipulation - and also how to engage with potential allies, instead alienating them too - I'm not sure you are not just coming along with a highly counter-productive all-purpose mallet.

One small point you may have misunderstood. I pointedly did NOT advocate understanding on the lines of a smoking-hippy "love and understanding" agenda. That's precisely in a line with what I emphatically criticised as "political correctness" and "(lame) tolerance" thinking, and you can add to that the exaggerated fear to offend people. All of which, at a social and societal level, are irresponsible.

Empathy is something rather different. This psychologist (*) stresses quite effectively that an ability to get on to people's wavelengths - whether or not you agree with or approve of them - is a crucial part of being human. It's not about "just being nice". It allows you to try to work out what makes others tick - including in the worst cases, their bombs. So you know how best to deal with it. And it's precisely because "zero negative empathy" types P (psychopathic), N (narcissistic) and B (so called "borderline") lack or rid themselves of any such skills, that such people have to be combated effectively. Calling such things "evil" or "monsters" is understandable revulsion, but doesn't do much good: in fact, ironically,it tends to build up the status of such bastards, add to their ugly credibility and effectiveness amongst those also susceptible to zero empathy.

(*) - Simon Baron-Cohen (yes, related: "Ali G/Borat"'s cousin): "Zero Degrees of Empathy" (Penguin)

Empathy is all well and good, but psychopaths exist and will always exist. Having empathy with a psychopath is as useful as giving a great white shark a cuddle.

Noooooooooooo .... you're not getting what "empathy" entails - AGAIN!!!

Ah empathy. So the likes of Merlin and Vilks must get on their wavelength? Is this not a two way street.
A small story. One of my sons was working with a Muslim. Initially they were friendly and did a bit of socialising.

This kid I assume came form a similar background and was quick with his mouth mocking other religions. Oddly enough he played the usual race/religious card when the situations were reversed.

The end came when he accused my son of not being up with world news as he refused to watch the news clippings of various people being beheaded, immolated etc.

Scum, total and utter. And fark empathy.

PeterCS wrote:Noooooooooooo .... you're not getting what "empathy" entails - AGAIN!!!

I know full well what empathy means and entails, but thank you for the condescension. I choose not to use it with psychopaths due to it being an exercise in futility.

Don't waste an iota of sympathy on the psychopaths.

I think Pete is arguing that an empathetic approach to the overall population will marginalise fewer, and push or drive fewer of them out of mainstream society towards acts of retaliatory hate and revenge.

Seriiously think this will end up in the courts,am ambivelent about it actually.
Just think no matter what law Abbott comes up with the courts will overule it.
Unless he specifies in the law the court can go **** them selves.

lardbucket wrote:Don't waste an iota of sympathy on the psychopaths.

I think Pete is arguing that an empathetic approach to the overall population will marginalise fewer, and push or drive fewer of them out of mainstream society towards acts of retaliatory hate and revenge.

Got it! (Thanks.)

I was also trying to suggest it's important to find and engage the empathies of those individuals in society who - experience seems to suggest - are likely only to be (further) alienated by the 'Big Mallet' approach, as I called it. Rather than switch them off further from the wider societies they live in, and wider shared value systems. They are often cramped and restricted enough in their family circles, the reports seem often to suggest.

I'm sorry you saw yourself as patronised, vilks. I feel that too was a misunderstanding of what I was getting at.

Lardy nailed it.

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