Re: Nobel Peace Prize Cheaped?

by Hass Mon 12 Oct 2009, 08:19

taipan wrote:Of course Cheshire was on the plane that dropped one of the 2 atomic bombs during WW2. Some might say that brought peace about.

Indeed.

It reminds me of William Sherman's letter to Atlanta when ordering the city's evacuation (before he burned it down) during the American Civil War.

You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the national feeling.

Some consider Sherman a war criminal for his march to the sea (and his later campaigns against the Indians). But he certainly did play a big role in bringing peace to the United States.

by JGK Mon 12 Oct 2009, 09:21

My nominees would be Ronald Reagan

Not sure he would qualify on the "for the abolition or reduction of standing armies " test.

by lardbucket Mon 12 Oct 2009, 09:58

taipan wrote:Of course Cheshire was on the plane that dropped one of the 2 atomic bombs during WW2. Some might say that brought peace about.

Not correct, AFAIK he was on the third plane in the formation, as an observer.

Kermit dropped the bomb.

by lardbucket Mon 12 Oct 2009, 10:11

[Here] is an interesting eyewitness account of the Nagasaki raid.

by Allan D Mon 12 Oct 2009, 10:14

JGK wrote:
My nominees would be Ronald Reagan

Not sure he would qualify on the "for the abolition or reduction of standing armies " test.

Don't think Obama would, either. He was the first US President however to actually reduce the US nuclear stockpile as opposed to placing ceilings on nuclear capacity (as Nixon did) or just talking about doing so (as Obama has done so far).

by Allan D Mon 12 Oct 2009, 10:17

lardbucket wrote:Kermit dropped the bomb.

It's not easy being green.

by Allan D Mon 12 Oct 2009, 10:32

[Here]is an interesting account of the Nanking Massacre, aka the Rape of Nanking, of 1937 in which more people were killed, often in the most brutal way imaginable, than died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki put together. Warning: NSFW or for those who are easily upset.

by tac Mon 12 Oct 2009, 10:34

Nanking is oft forgotten, AD . . . but you know what they say about two wongs . . .

by Allan D Mon 12 Oct 2009, 10:47

tac wrote:Nanking is oft forgotten, AD . . . but you know what they say about two wongs . . .

...don't make a white. Embarassed

by Allan D Mon 12 Oct 2009, 10:58

Hass wrote:
taipan wrote:Of course Cheshire was on the plane that dropped one of the 2 atomic bombs during WW2. Some might say that brought peace about.

Indeed.

It reminds me of William Sherman's letter to Atlanta when ordering the city's evacuation (before he burned it down) during the American Civil War.

You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the the end of national feeling.

Some consider Sherman a war criminal for his march to the sea (and his later campaigns against the Indians). But he certainly did play a big role in bringing peace to the United States.

Indeed he did, Hass, and more than that, Sherman, one of the great geniuses of modern warfare, perfectly predicted what the course of the war would be in a letter to a Southern sympathiser at the end of 1860:

You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it… Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth—right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.

After four years of bitter fighting he lamented:

I confess, without shame, that I am sick and tired of fighting — its glory is all moonshine; even success the most brilliant is over dead and mangled bodies, with the anguish and lamentations of distant families, appealing to me for sons, husbands, and fathers ... it is only those who have never heard a shot, never heard the shriek and groans of the wounded and lacerated ... that cry aloud for more blood, more vengeance, more desolation.

The most poignant story I ever heard was about the aged Montgomery, towards the end of his life, revisting the site of his first, and most famous, victory at El Alamein in Egypt, tears streaming from his eyes as he walked through the cemetery reading the gravestones, turning to his companion and saying:

Were there really so many?

by taipan Mon 12 Oct 2009, 10:59

lardbucket wrote:
taipan wrote:Of course Cheshire was on the plane that dropped one of the 2 atomic bombs during WW2. Some might say that brought peace about.

Not correct, AFAIK he was on the third plane in the formation, as an observer.

Kermit dropped the bomb.

Could be wrong. Long time since I read Dambusters

by Merlin Mon 12 Oct 2009, 11:08

They dropped atomic bombs in the Rhur valley ?! Shocked

by taipan Mon 12 Oct 2009, 11:18

Merlin wrote:They dropped atomic bombs in the Rhur valley ?!

Read the book. Gibson was squadron leader for the Dams raid. Cheshire became squadron leader later. The book covers the war history of the squadron.

by Merlin Mon 12 Oct 2009, 11:52

Granted all that - was just making the point that 617 weren't into atomic bombs over the Rhur.

Tongue in cheek taips ... just tongue in cheek.

by holcs Tue 13 Oct 2009, 14:18

Cannot believe the farquar accpeted the thing.

So now we have to hear more eulogising about what he intends to do, when in fact the bloke has beeen in office for months now, and has done the square root of fark all, but talk about what he plans to do, both home and abroad!

There has got to be a better word than just cheaping for this award?

by taipan Tue 13 Oct 2009, 14:19

holcs wrote:Cannot believe the farquar accpeted the thing.

So now we have to hear more eulogising about what he intends to do, when in fact the bloke has beeen in office for months now, and has done the square root of fark all, but talk about what he plans to do, both home and abroad!

There has got to be a better word than just cheaping for this award?

FUBAR?

by taipan Tue 13 Oct 2009, 14:28

holcs wrote:Cannot believe the farquar accpeted the thing.

Can you imagine the impression he could of made if he turned it down.

by holcs Tue 13 Oct 2009, 15:11

taipan wrote:
holcs wrote:Cannot believe the farquar accpeted the thing.

So now we have to hear more eulogising about what he intends to do, when in fact the bloke has beeen in office for months now, and has done the square root of fark all, but talk about what he plans to do, both home and abroad!

There has got to be a better word than just cheaping for this award?

FUBAR?

FUBAR?

by holcs Tue 13 Oct 2009, 15:12

taipan wrote:
holcs wrote:Cannot believe the farquar accpeted the thing.

Can you imagine the impression he could of made if he turned it down.

well the impression I get from him is he is all mouth and no trousers. Talks the talk but will achieve very little if nothing in his term. Hence he took it so at least he may achieve something, even if it is cheaping the Nobel Peace Prize in all effect!

by taipan Tue 13 Oct 2009, 15:13

Thought it was common parlance.

Up Beyond All Recognition.

by taipan Tue 13 Oct 2009, 15:14

holcs wrote:
taipan wrote:
holcs wrote:Cannot believe the farquar accpeted the thing.

Can you imagine the impression he could of made if he turned it down.

well the impression I get from him is he is all mouth and no trousers. Talks the talk but will achieve very little if nothing in his term. Hence he took it so at least he may achieve something, even if it is cheaping the Nobel Peace Prize in all effect!

During the campaign it was clear he couldn't fulfill the promises. Particularly on the free education and universities.

by holcs Tue 13 Oct 2009, 15:20

taipan wrote:
holcs wrote:
taipan wrote:
holcs wrote:Cannot believe the farquar accpeted the thing.

Can you imagine the impression he could of made if he turned it down.

well the impression I get from him is he is all mouth and no trousers. Talks the talk but will achieve very little if nothing in his term. Hence he took it so at least he may achieve something, even if it is cheaping the Nobel Peace Prize in all effect!

During the campaign it was clear he couldn't fulfill the promises. Particularly on the free education and universities.

Aye, no doubt.

The best of a shocking bunch of potential suitors really!

by DJ_Smerk Tue 13 Oct 2009, 15:48

Wasn't FUBAR a phrase used in WWII?

by Allan D Wed 14 Oct 2009, 00:55

holcs wrote:

There has got to be a better word than just cheaping for this award?

"Cheapening" might be more grammatically correct. The NPP couldn't get much cheaper after they awarded it to Yasser Arafat who then started the Intifada.

Charlie Sheen on BHO:

You promised to abolish the Patriot Act and then voted to re-authorize it. You pledged to end warrantless wire tapping against the American people and now energetically defend it. You decried the practice of rendition and now continue it. You promised over and over again on the campaign trail, that you would end the practice of indefinite detention and instead, you have expanded it to permanent detention of “detainees” without trial. This far exceeds the outrages of the former administration. Call me crazy Mr. President, but is this not your record?

by tac Wed 14 Oct 2009, 01:48

AD cheaping political discussion by quoting Charlie Sheen . . .

FWIW, I think Obama's attitude toward muslims, his attempts to marginalize Al Qaeda and others within the muslim community as a whole is something that was very necessary and cold bring many important victories in the coming years . . . that, and his notion of "speaking to his enemies" rather than just threatening to bomb the shite out of them, spells a tremmendous change in international relations . . . but then again, what the fark would I know . . .

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