Young saffa breaks AB's record

taipan wrote:

Henry wrote:Yeah, KP came to England as an off spinner who could slog a few at number 9. Jonathan Trott arrived as an all rounder who was picked as much for his steady medium pace dobbers as his batting.

And that makes them pre teen as per Lever's contention?

No, but it makes them sh!t cricketers who became World Class cricketers after they moved to England.

Strauss, Prior, Meaker, Malan... quite a few more that I've forgotten.

Dernbach.

Strauss, Prior?

How many of those you listed were tapped up? Can't think many were guaranteed interntional cricket when they left SA, most of them barely with a FC career.

Jacques Rudolph wanted to qualify for England until the ECB told him they weren't going to pick anyone who had already played test cricket for another Country.

Brass Monkey wrote:Strauss, Prior, Meaker, Malan... quite a few more that I've forgotten.

Which is why I've never claimed Strauss and Prior as Saffies

Henry wrote:Dernbach.

Jaon Roy, Compton and previously Ben Hutton.

Henry wrote:

taipan wrote:

Henry wrote:Yeah, KP came to England as an off spinner who could slog a few at number 9. Jonathan Trott arrived as an all rounder who was picked as much for his steady medium pace dobbers as his batting.

And that makes them pre teen as per Lever's contention?

No, but it makes them sh!t cricketers who became World Class cricketers after they moved to England.

BS Trev. I know you guys are touchy you can't develop your own cricketers but that's no reason to talk crap.

Which of the saffer imports were World Class?

JKLever wrote:Strauss, Prior?

How many of those you listed were tapped up? Can't think many were guaranteed interntional cricket when they left SA, most of them barely with a FC career.

FFS did I mention they were tapped up. Did I claim they were guaranteed international cricket.

The simple fact is that they can earn more money in CC cricket than they could earn playing FC in SA.

Which goes back to my original point is that they moved for the money.

Aye, maybe they did. Only they'll know for sure. I know a couple of them come over for the Universities.

The rest gets my goat, though - Prior, Strauss and whoever else getting called Saffie just because they were born there. It's tenuous journalism / forumming.

Brass Monkey wrote:Aye, maybe they did. Only they'll know for sure. I know a couple of them come over for the Universities.

The rest gets my goat, though - Prior, Strauss and whoever else getting called Saffie just because they were born there. It's tenuous journalism / forumming.

Well I never have. Strauss is probably more Aussie than Saffie anyway.

Strauss moved to England when he was what...three? Then I think he lived in Australia for a year or something like that. He's English, really.....

Henry wrote:Strauss moved to England when he was what...three? Then I think he lived in Australia for a year or something like that. He's English, really.....

Yeah, and I think he was a couple of months old when he left SA

Henry wrote:Jacques Rudolph wanted to qualify for England until the ECB told him they weren't going to pick anyone who had already played test cricket for another Country.

They had to because of a rule brought in by the ICC to stop Test "tourism" i.e. ex-Test players dropped by their countries of origin playing in another country deliberately to get picked for their Test side. I think it was aimed at England who have included more foreign-born players than any other international side and who it was feared might resort to picking ex-Test players who were playing county cricket and had qualified by residence, especially ex-pat South Africans such as Barry Richards and Mike Procter.

Younis Ahmed, who had played for Pakistan at the end of the 60s and had transplanted to England was particularly keen to play for the home Test side until a betting scandal ended his fc career and he returned to Paklistan where, curiosly, he bbriefly returned to the Test side.

I think exceptions were made for Traicos and Kepler Wessels when Zimbabwe was given Test status and South Africa returned to the Test Match arena.

Henry wrote:Strauss moved to England when he was what...three? Then I think he lived in Australia for a year or something like that. He's English, really.....

His father's English, his mum's South African and his wife's Australian so make of that what you will. A perfect choice for Chairman of the ICC when he retires although I'm sure someone will object.

Brass Monkey wrote:Aye, maybe they did. Only they'll know for sure. I know a couple of them come over for the Universities.

The rest gets my goat, though - Prior, Strauss and whoever else getting called Saffie just because they were born there. It's tenuous journalism / forumming.

Yes, one might as well describe Lord Harris and Pelham Warner as West Indians, Colin Cowdrey Indian, Ted Dexter Italian and Freddie Brown Peruvian!

Allan D wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:Aye, maybe they did. Only they'll know for sure. I know a couple of them come over for the Universities.

The rest gets my goat, though - Prior, Strauss and whoever else getting called Saffie just because they were born there. It's tenuous journalism / forumming.

Yes, one might as well describe Lord Harris and Pelham Warner as West Indians, Colin Cowdrey Indian, Ted Dexter Italian and Freddie Brown Peruvian!

And Mike Denness Scottish

taipan wrote:

Allan D wrote:Saffie club cricket - if those records are meaningful then A.E.J.Collins should have captained England.

That's the guy who got the 620 right?

628*, to be precise, over 4 afternoons in 10 mins short of 7 hours' batting time in a junior house match at Clifton College, Bristol two months short of his 14th birthday in the same month that W.G. played his last Test. After his batting feat he still had enough energy to take 11 wickets in the match as his side forced the opposition to follow-on and succumb to an innings and 688 run defeat.

He became a regular soldier although he did later play at Lord's in matches for Army sides. He was killed 15 years later exactly 4 years before WWI ended:

Clarke's House Juniors v. North House Juniors, Clifton College Close Ground, 22-28 June 1899

Arthur Collins

Basil wrote:

Allan D wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:Aye, maybe they did. Only they'll know for sure. I know a couple of them come over for the Universities.

The rest gets my goat, though - Prior, Strauss and whoever else getting called Saffie just because they were born there. It's tenuous journalism / forumming.

Yes, one might as well describe Lord Harris and Pelham Warner as West Indians, Colin Cowdrey Indian, Ted Dexter Italian and Freddie Brown Peruvian!

And Mike Denness Scottish

But don't let the Scots hear you say it, though!

Brass Monkey wrote:Aye, maybe they did. Only they'll know for sure. I know a couple of them come over for the Universities.

The rest gets my goat, though - Prior, Strauss and whoever else getting called Saffie just because they were born there. It's tenuous journalism / forumming.

Strauss left saffaland about five, spent a year or so in oz and then went to England, while Prior left to go to the motherland at age eleven. Lazy or opportunistic journos refer to Prior and Strauss as saffers usually to conveniently fit some article they're trying to write at the time or push some agenda. Trott and KP are different for instance with the former representing SA at under 19 level and the latter plying his trade in their domestic comp. Kieswetter also played under 19 cricket for his native country. There are certainly different categories of saffers playing for the poms.

Surely also it's a moot point whether or not the aforementioned would have have developed their games to the same level had they stayed in SA or not.

Henry wrote:Sorry, I meant Pienaar's achievement. Alan D said it was in Saffie Club Cricket, but according to the article he did it playing for Irish side Waringstown.

My bad, Irish club cricket? Should walk straight into the England side, then!

Allan D wrote:

taipan wrote:

Allan D wrote:Saffie club cricket - if those records are meaningful then A.E.J.Collins should have captained England.

That's the guy who got the 620 right?

628*, to be precise, over 4 afternoons in 10 mins short of 7 hours' batting time in a junior house match at Clifton College, Bristol two months short of his 14th birthday in the same month that W.G. played his last Test. After his batting feat he still had enough energy to take 11 wickets in the match as his side forced the opposition to follow-on and succumb to an innings and 688 run defeat.

He became a regular soldier although he did later play at Lord's in matches for Army sides. He was killed 15 years later exactly 4 years before WWI ended:

Clarke's House Juniors v. North House Juniors, Clifton College Close Ground, 22-28 June 1899

Arthur Collins

I wasn't that far out.

Red wrote:Surely also it's a moot point whether or not the aforementioned would have have developed their games to the same level had they stayed in SA or not.

I'm not sure it is, really. I think they were more likely to stagnate in more familiar surroundings, possibly have less drive due to the quota system or whatever else. From the other side, it's hardly harmed the South African cause with neither of them a certain shoo-in for the SA Test side. Arguably, neither of them would get a game and they're two of the better batsmen in world cricket.

Red wrote:There are certainly different categories of saffers playing for the poms.

Fair point this.

Though it should be noted most Saffers who come over to play county cricket and get england qualified have not had dazzling FC careers in SA. Trott & KP have both made their name/runs in county cricket. No star player has been plucked from SA cricket then qualified for England.

And for what its worth.... Lamb, Smith, Radford all stayed in the UK long after their careers ended. KP & Trott have both married English girls too. Tawny Grigg is the one exception.