FB All-Time XI Virtual Series, First Test - Lords 1912

Here are the participating teams, in batting order as submitted by the coaches.

Peter CS XI

1. BA Richards 2. EJ Barlow 3. GA Headley 4. E De C Weekes 5. E Paynter 6. FS Jackson
7. PJL Dujon 8. AK Davidson 9. SK Warne 10. CEL Ambrose 11. AME Roberts Sub. KC Bland

Taipan XI

1. L Hutton 2. SM Gavaskar 3. C Hill 4. KF Barrington 5. DI Gower 6. AD Nourse
7. AC Gilchrist 8. DW Steyn 9. H Larwood 10. FR Spofforth 11. SF Barnes Sub. JN Rhodes

Henry XI

1. AN Cook 2. H Sutcliffe 3. R Dravid 4. BC Lara 5. SR Waugh (c) 6. VVS Laxman
7. Imran Khan 8. APE Knott (w) 9. RJ Hadlee 10. JC Laker 11. J Garner Sub. AB deVilliers

BM XI

1. VT Trumper 2.ML Hayden 3. FMM Worrell 4. GS Chappell 5. Javed Miandad 6. KP Pietersen
7. MJ Prior 8. Wasim Akram 9. RR Lindwall 10. M Muralitharan 11. AA Donald Sub. DW Randall

Tricycle XI

1. GC Smith 2. DL Amiss 3. KS Ranjitsinhji 4. C Walcott 5. VS Hazare 6. A Flower
7. KR Miller 8. R Benaud 9. FS Trueman 10. FH Tyson 11. BS Bedi Sub. ED Solkar

Baggygreen XI

1. JB Hobbs 2. RB Simpson 3. WR Hammond 4. GA Gooch 5. IVA Richards 6. AR Border
7. IA Healy 8. Kapil Dev 9. WJ O'Reilly 10. MA Holding 11. WA Johnston Sub. RT Ponting

Skullywag XI

1. WM Lawyry 2. KC Sangakkara 3. PBH May 4. DCS Compton 5. RG Pollock 6. G St A Sobers
7. IT Botham 8. A Kumble 9. DK Lillee 10. CV Grimmett 11. CA Walsh Sub. RA Harper

Paul K XI

1. Hanif Mohammad 2. A Shrewsbury 3. C Hill 4. SJ McCabe 5. S Chanderpaul 6. WG Grace
7. TG Evans 8. AV Bedser 9. H Verity 10. IR Bishop 11. BS Chandrasekhar Sub. CL Hooper

Growler's XI

1. GG Greenidge 2. MA Atherton 3. AJ Stewart (w) 4. JH Kallis 5. CH Lloyd (c) 6. IA Greig
7. TE Bailey 8. Abdul Qadir 9. DL Underwood 10. Waqar Younis 11. GD McGrath
Sub. PD Collingwood

For the first test, we'll travel back 100 years (late June, 1912) to the home of cricket. The scorecard of the match actually played is here, and the Wisden almanac report of it here.

I'm staying as close to the conditions of the actual match as possible - but for the purposes of this debate ........

1. Weather - heavy rain the night before the match, and after play. Forecast dry for day 2, and warmer again for the final day.
2. Pitch - too wet to be really difficult until mid afternoon day1, a sticky mess after tea, tricky for day 2 morning, then improving all day, easy going on day 3.
3. Overs and rates - remember in those days 20+ overs/hour was not only common, but expected.
4. Remember, the match is 3 days, not 5.

So - will you bat or bowl if you win the toss? Which XI do you fancy bowling against if you bowl first? Conversely, if you bat - through choice or not - which attack would you least like to face?

Over to you .........

You really want IA Greig? His brother might do better for you ...

If I won the toss, I would definitely bowl. Lillee, Walsh, Sobers and Botham would tear any opposition a new a-hole, espesh in very seamy conditions, with Grimmett and Kumble to add to the misery.

I'd bowl against Trev's XI as they are all FTB's except Tugga. If I batted I would least like to face taipan's attack, closely followed by Pete's.

lardbucket wrote:You really want IA Greig? His brother might do better for you ...

Thanks lardy .... careless error in confirming players initials ffrom HowStat. A check on the picks thread shows his brother Tony was really my choice.

Apologies to fellow coaches, I'm not trying a sly change after picks close

skully wrote:If I won the toss, I would definitely bowl. Lillee, Walsh, Sobers and Botham would tear any opposition a new a-hole, espesh in very seamy conditions, with Grimmett and Kumble to add to the misery.

I'd bowl against Trev's XI as they are all FTB's except Tugga. If I batted I would least like to face taipan's attack, closely followed by Pete's.

Phurt. Nonsense. Sutcliffe? Laxman? Lara? FTBs??

If it's a wet track then Bedser will clean up any batting line up.

I fancy Verity and Chandrasekhar against Growls team. The Indian legs pun maestro will have his top four out in no time.

More I think about it the more I know my team will be victorious against all comers.

How does the winner actually get determined?

Where is your 12, mister K?

I didn't know WTF was happening in those silly draft threads until it was too late.

Happy to add a team from the best of the rest.

I was away when the draft was on. I only came up with my 12 yesterday after all the good players were taken already.

Hanif and Chanders could just stonewall for two days if defeat looms.

I'd also bowl, skully - but I'm mindful that at the time, Hobbs scored a ton, Macartney 99 and a further two 50's in the game,, so the records say the match wasn't over in 130 overs, and runs were possible.

Taipan's attack is very good, but as a point of historical interest, in the match I've taken this scenario from, one Sydney Barnes returned his worst bowling return in Tests of 0/74. He only had a 0-fer on 3 other occasions in 50 innings bowling. He took 39 wickets in the other 5 matches of the triangular tournament.

I'm not sure the real fast bowlers would have been particularly effective - not least with the wet run-ups - like you, I reckon seam and spin will trouble the bats more for much of the game.

Whilst I'd also most fancy my attack's chances against Trev's top order - I think his bowling attack are more than useful here ......

JGK wrote:How does the winner actually get determined?

There's no "winner" as such ....... if this thread proves popular, I'll repeat it with other grounds/times/weather/pitch conditions maybe every week/10 days or so. It's just a chance to see which team would survive best through the ages, so to speak.

JGK wrote:I didn't know WTF was happening in those silly draft threads until it was too late.

Happy to add a team from the best of the rest.

You're welcome to add an XI as far as I'm concerned, Mr K, but for this game it will be overlooked as it will be separated from the others.

However, if you take a while to consider your options and put it up in the "picks only "thread, I'll put it with the rest for the next game. It's a playing XI sett in stone and a top fielder as sub.

Paul Keating wrote:If it's a wet track then Bedser will clean up any batting line up.

I fancy Verity and Chandrasekhar against Growls team. The Indian legs pun maestro will have his top four out in no time.

More I think about it the more I know my team will be victorious against all comers.

Fancy my batsmen heh ponts? I'm not so sure. Granted, Greenidge in particular didn't grow up learning to play spin, and you may have him cheaply. Stewie also was an aggressive batsman, so it may not take a nasty ball to get him. Athers however, had soft hands and if he wasn't out early would keep the scoreboard moving. Kallis also ........ he can keep Athers company all day if he survives the first few overs.

Bowling wise, I've a leggie and a left-arm tweaker the equal of yours, my friend ...... and with the best will in the world I don't see you bowling first then getting a winning 1st dig lead

What is your top four batsmens records against leg spin?

Pretty appalling from memory!

Growler, ... you presented so many questions all at once there, I'm not sure even where to start!

Second thought: because (e.g.) Barnes bowled unprofitably and Macartney fared well on a dog, doesn't necessarily even mean they would do so in the same conditions a second time round. (Before taking all the other variables and contingencies into account.) A dropped catch taken (or a caught one dropped) .... by the same fielder to the same bowler, let alone by a different fielder to a different bowler might produce a rather different result.


That said ....

The dominant thought is that that *particular* match would probably have ended in a draw between almost any sides of reasonable merit. Because it farqin bucketed it down much of the time. "Only 3.5 hours play was possible on the first day, and 20 minutes on the second." Even busying the overs along as they did, a total of under 220 overs was bowled, all told, and two incomplete innings possible.


Maybe you should have given us the final game of that series, at the Oval!

(Or even better, a match like http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/62481.html )

Henry wrote:

skully wrote:If I won the toss, I would definitely bowl. Lillee, Walsh, Sobers and Botham would tear any opposition a new a-hole, espesh in very seamy conditions, with Grimmett and Kumble to add to the misery.

I'd bowl against Trev's XI as they are all FTB's except Tugga. If I batted I would least like to face taipan's attack, closely followed by Pete's.

Phurt. Nonsense. Sutcliffe? Laxman? Lara? FTBs??

Yeah, I'll give you Sutcliffe, Trev. Was gonna pick him myself. And I was taking the piss a bit with Punce. But Laxman was the epitome of an FTB.

As regards batting or bowling first, I'd trust Warney to assess the situation shrewdly. (And steal his mobile, quick.)

I suppose Warne might well follow Fry's decision and bat first, reckoning that the weather forecast suggested batting conditions were unlikely to get any less sticky during the three days. He might well first get an opinion from Jackson (closer to the event and conditions).


I honestly don't know which of those bowling attacks "my" Headley-Warne-Jackson brains trust would fear most, or least.

Personally, I wouldn't much like your own combination of (at least the young, mystery whirling) Qadir and wet-wicket killer Underwood (< on later historical evidence, there's another reason for batting FIRST!).


I notice from the Aus innings in the 1912 match that the English left-armers, especially the aggressively probing left-armers, had at least some joy later in the match (though too late to force anything). I recall reading in Fry's autobiography that he was booed by the crowd - in this very match, I think - for deliberately keeping left-arm wet-wicket specialist and hence secret weapon/trump card Frank Woolley out of the bowling attack, to keep him carefully under wraps from the Aussies until he had the chance to actually WIN the match. (He duly did so, and the Triangular Tournament, at the Oval. The crowd cheered, Fry did not feel like going out on the balcony to smile and wave .....)

There are a few of those probing left-armers spread around "our" teams. ~ If "my" team did win the toss and batted, though, and there happened to be more play than there actually was, the other teams might have to look out for Davo skidding it into and slanting it across them!

Generally too, on that wicket, any "mayhem" bowler might prove fatal - to life and limb, if not wickets. Taipan's Larwood, Baggy's Holding, on a "good" (murderous) day Skully's Lillee and Trike's whirling Typhoon would probably be to the fore in that category.

Thank God then that nobody chose Crofty, or the original Patto (Patrick). The homicidal maniacs.

Peter, the point regarding Barnes was just a point of historical interest, I didn't choose this match *because* he had his worst return - more*in spite* of the fact. You see, the actual figures and result are irrelevant - I used them simply to show that, despite tough conditions that runs could be made. Of course dropped catches etc could have changed the result - but there are dozens of such variables in every game, I know that.

Remember also, when I described pitch and weather for our match, I specifically said that we wouldn't lose any time, so with spinners on we should easily envisage well over 350 overs. I'm just interested in how people think their sides would compare with others in these conditions.

Aye Growler

I've now added some "constructive" thoughts, though inconclusive!

skully wrote:

Henry wrote:

skully wrote:If I won the toss, I would definitely bowl. Lillee, Walsh, Sobers and Botham would tear any opposition a new a-hole, espesh in very seamy conditions, with Grimmett and Kumble to add to the misery.

I'd bowl against Trev's XI as they are all FTB's except Tugga. If I batted I would least like to face taipan's attack, closely followed by Pete's.

Phurt. Nonsense. Sutcliffe? Laxman? Lara? FTBs??

Yeah, I'll give you Sutcliffe, Trev. Was gonna pick him myself. And I was taking the piss a bit with Punce. But Laxman was the epitome of an FTB.

I remember VVS making runs on some tricky pitches. Perhaps he was more of a 'tricky situation, pressure cooker specialist'? Might offset his FTB-ness.

Paul Keating wrote:What is your top four batsmens records against leg spin?

Pretty appalling from memory!

Not as appalling as you may think. Although SKW dismissed Athers 10 times, he'd scored an average of 32 before going. Mustaq Ahmed of Pakistan got him 3 times, but at an average of 42.

Warne had Stewart 14 times, at an average of just 26 - but the only other leggies who dismissed him more than once were MacGill and Mushtaq Ahmed - but on average scores on dismissal of 52 and 66 respectively.

Jacques Kallis made on average 36 on each occasion he fell to Warne, who is the only leggie to have significant success against him.

Greenidge also only really faced one top leggie to any degree - Abdul Qadir. His average on dismissal of 31 isn't too shabby.

On those figures, I'm not at all convinced my top order would be back in the hutch before lunch.

Edit - had quite forgotten that A Kumble was a leggie - will look at my bats records against him.

OK found them ..... average score when dismissed by Anil Kumble

Athers - 27
Stewart - 43
Kallis - 45

Henry wrote:

skully wrote:

Henry wrote:

skully wrote:If I won the toss, I would definitely bowl. Lillee, Walsh, Sobers and Botham would tear any opposition a new a-hole, espesh in very seamy conditions, with Grimmett and Kumble to add to the misery.

I'd bowl against Trev's XI as they are all FTB's except Tugga. If I batted I would least like to face taipan's attack, closely followed by Pete's.

Phurt. Nonsense. Sutcliffe? Laxman? Lara? FTBs??

Yeah, I'll give you Sutcliffe, Trev. Was gonna pick him myself. And I was taking the piss a bit with Punce. But Laxman was the epitome of an FTB.

I remember VVS making runs on some tricky pitches. Perhaps he was more of a 'tricky situation, pressure cooker specialist'? Might offset his FTB-ness.

Not half bad on a dusty turner though. Won't call him a FTB.

A small correction to kick off with. I had GA Faulkner at 3 not C Hill.