The Moeen Conundrum

Lyth presumably will disappear from the scene.

Opening spot up for grabs for UAE and beyond.

Moeen not cutting it as a frontline spinner so we need to have a proper spinner.

How to solve the puzzle.

Moeen to open in UAE to accommodate Rashid. Potentially workable as the slow, flat pitches might allow Ali to do a serviceable job at the top. But in this game he has again shown vulnerability to pace and even on flatties the likes of Wahab Riaz and the Giant Irfan could get the new ball round his ears. His dismissal to Mitch in 2nd dig looked to me like a guy who was frightened about getting sconed again and didn;t want to know. He just meekly threw his hands at a channel ball. Can't make it as an opener if you can't play pace - and if you openly show how easily you can be unsettled then you will be mercilessly targetted.

So, do England go for Mo as a short-term solution? And use UAE to see if Rashid is up to scratch?

Or do we need to find a proper opener - Hales or other? And then Mo plays as the frontline spinner alongside a 4 seam attack - big risk.

Or is it a 3 seamer (one of whom is Stokes as all-rounder) and 2 spinner attack (Mo and Rash).

You're talking as if there isn't a place for him at number 5, instead of the pretender who currently holds the position

I think the question has to be- is Moeen one of the best six BATSMAN we can pick? Because I don't think his bowling is good enough to be picked as a frontline spinner. It's becoming more and more clear that last Summer was an aberration. If he's NOT one of the best six batsmen, then he becomes a classically 1990s 'bits and pieces selection. I think he could be a very good number six, but they're loathe to moves Stokes from six these days, lest they damage his (more fragile than we're led to believe) confidence. 

Another option is to drop Buttler and give Bairstow the gloves at number five. But IMO Bairstow looks as shaky as he ever did in an England shirt.

Brass Monkey wrote:You're talking as if there isn't a place for him at number 5, instead of the pretender who currently holds the position

Are you seriously suggesting that Jonny Fartpants with his baseball-esque stance and scarily obvious technical flaws be dropped?

I genuinely hadn't thought of that - it seems the obvious solution. Quick, get in touch with the selectors as I'm sure they've overlooked this too.

Ben Foakes made a big century for Surrey yesterday. He's been on England's radar since he was about 18. Might be a dark horse selection as a keeper for the UAE.

The problem Moeen has had this summer is that England have played four quicks on seamer-friendly pitches,so his ability to bowl long spells and actually get into some sort of rhythm has been restricted.

Further to Monkey's last post above - for my money the UAE line up would be ....

1. Cook
2. A.N Other specialist opener .... NOT Ali
3. Belf
4.Root
5. Ali
6. St Oaks
7. Buttler
8. Rashid
9. Wood/Finn/A.N.Other quick
10.Broad
11.Jimmy

3 quicks + Stokes

2 spinners (we need to see if Rashid can make it at test level - and he'll at least have conditions to give him a fighting chance of wickets)

Batting down to at least 7 assuming Buttler gets back to form with the willow.

If we hadn't got an opener to find urgently, I'd be minded to look at a possible replacement for Bell in the longer term, but that will have to wait a while. A fresh opener + Bell replacement + Rashid debut will be too much at once. I'd be happy to just see a bit of fight in the team in close defeats rather than huge wins by either side.

I reckon in the UAE we could do worse than giving Bairstow the gloves (his batting has been streets ahead of Buttler's although that hasn't been hard), put Moeen up the order and bring in Rashid as second spinning all rounder. This gives us a huge number of bowling options and we'd bat stupid deep, although admittedly the lack of 'proper' batsmen might be a worry given that it's mostly been out batting that's been awful recently. This might be mitigated if we could pick a second opener capable of not getting out.

Basically what Growler said but Bairstow for Buttler.

I don't know who is the worst at batting against spin bowling, but a 5, 6, 7 of Bairstow, Stokes and Buttler is a no goer, we'll be 3 down to 6 down in no time. Dreadful hard hands. The only thing to do is break that up with someone who can play it. If not, we'll have to pray that Jayawardene can work miracles

Lindsay no.2 wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:You're talking as if there isn't a place for him at number 5, instead of the pretender who currently holds the position

Are you seriously suggesting that Jonny Fartpants with his baseball-esque stance and scarily obvious technical flaws be dropped?

I genuinely hadn't thought of that - it seems the obvious solution. Quick, get in touch with the selectors as I'm sure they've overlooked this too.

 I've been banging on about that (part-)solution all series. (Namely Moeen @ 5, frontline spinner with a bit of bat, most obviously Rashid, to be tried at 8.)

Whereas, the opener problem is still a book with seven seals.

To me it's also a Big Bell Conundrum. In other words, who to bring in at 3.

Though Ian, being such an expert at spin, will no doubt get the desert gig. And probably then marmalised if he gets "down" as well.

PeterCS wrote:

Lindsay no.2 wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:You're talking as if there isn't a place for him at number 5, instead of the pretender who currently holds the position

Are you seriously suggesting that Jonny Fartpants with his baseball-esque stance and scarily obvious technical flaws be dropped?

I genuinely hadn't thought of that - it seems the obvious solution. Quick, get in touch with the selectors as I'm sure they've overlooked this too.

 I've been banging on about that (part-)solution all series.

Whereas, the opener problem is still a book with seven seals.

Apologies - you and Monkey (and anyone else who has been thinking of this) are spot-on.

To be honest, I didn't expect Rashid to get the gig for the first couple of Tests. And blooding a spinner at the Oval admittedly has a bad precedent. ~ Still, an attacking leggie is a slightly different proposition from an (attempted) F&G man.

PeterCS wrote:To me it's also a Big Bell Conundrum. In other words, who to bring in at 3.

Holy shit batman - that's too big a challenge to solve

Bell will not get dropped yet - during or post SA series (depending on how he fares would be my guess).

I have advocated Root to be the 3 long-term - so maybe they should do it in UAE (but people seem loathe to move someone from a batting slot where they're churning out the runs, irrespective of the fact he's been effectively acting as a 3 as he's been coming in routinely in the early overs).

Overall then 3 of the top 5 batting slots are f*cked and replacements are thin on the ground, is that the general consensus?

Winkle Spinner wrote:Basically what Growler said but Bairstow for Buttler.

I don't know. It's a teaser.

I saw Jonny bat twice in the flesh (perhaps rephrase that) in the last three days. Liked the cut of his jib, the run-seeking, hard-sprinting, and suddenly technically proficient approach - until he played one ugly balloon hoick straight down the waiting boundary fielder's throat and one England-1990s tentative prod. Excellent in the field too. Anticipation, speed, arm.

Whereas Buttler has started pretty horribly with the bat, but last evening finally showed some definite signs. And hugely athletic keeping.

Hence strengths and weaknesses very close to JB's, I think, so far at least.

Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other? I keep waiting for one of them to stake a strong claim, instead of showing signs and then throwing it away. I'd take them both to the desert, and leave neither there.

Lindsay no.2 wrote:

PeterCS wrote:To me it's also a Big Bell Conundrum. In other words, who to bring in at 3.

Holy shit batman - that's too big a challenge to solve

Bell will not get dropped yet - during or post SA series (depending on how he fares would be my guess).

I have advocated Root to be the 3 long-term - so maybe they should do it in UAE (but people seem loathe to move someone from a batting slot where they're churning out the runs, irrespective of the fact he's been effectively acting as a 3 as he's been coming in routinely in the early overs).

Overall then 3 of the top 5 batting slots are f*cked and replacements are thin on the ground, is that the general consensus?

Given that Stokes only averaged 25 for the series, 6 also looks fairly problematical.

KP having a chirp on twitter-

"@KP24: Lyth needs to be replaced for sure! Out of his depth! Hales needs a gig! He could open against SA!"


"@KP24: And I would have averaged more than 10 batting left handed without pads! 😂"


Being coy and diplomatic as usual......he does speak the truth though!

Tell us when he gets to:

"@K*24: Ey im still ready & available, and Straussy, U doos - i cn outbat any of these guys w 1 hand tied bhind my back ya?"

taipan wrote:

Lindsay no.2 wrote:

PeterCS wrote:To me it's also a Big Bell Conundrum. In other words, who to bring in at 3.

Holy shit batman - that's too big a challenge to solve

Bell will not get dropped yet - during or post SA series (depending on how he fares would be my guess).

I have advocated Root to be the 3 long-term - so maybe they should do it in UAE (but people seem loathe to move someone from a batting slot where they're churning out the runs, irrespective of the fact he's been effectively acting as a 3 as he's been coming in routinely in the early overs).

Overall then 3 of the top 5 batting slots are f*cked and replacements are thin on the ground, is that the general consensus?

Given that Stokes only averaged 25 for the series, 6 also looks fairly problematical.

He might fare better if the 5 in front of him could deliver stronger positions for him to come in at.

I don't see him as a weak point though. His atttitude is generally right - he doesn't look over-awed, rather he looks right up for it. He doesn't appear to have big technical flaws that could be exploited by the oppo bowlers. Maybe a bit too cavalier a bit too soon sometimes - but perhaps we just have to live with that. Let's see what he can do against spin in the UAE - can he develop a game against that which is more than just looking to smash it.

PeterCS wrote:

Winkle Spinner wrote:Basically what Growler said but Bairstow for Buttler.

I don't know. It's a teaser.

I saw Jonny bat twice in the flesh (perhaps rephrase that) in the last three days. Liked the cut of his jib, the run-seeking, hard-sprinting, and suddenly technically proficient approach - until he played one ugly balloon hoick straight down the waiting boundary fielder's throat and one England-1990s tentative prod. Excellent in the field too. Anticipation, speed, arm.

I wasn't at the ground, so didn't see him in the flesh - but he looked almost as big a technical wreck up as ever - scored most of his runs by way of the edge to third man... abominable technique against the spinner, unless hard-handed lunges are in vogue.

Lindsay no.2 wrote:
Overall then 3 of the top 5 batting slots are f*cked and replacements are thin on the ground, is that the general consensus?

Hales has got 1000 runs now... otherwise it's the old stagers such as Compton, Carberry, Taylor... Hildreth is having a great season - Trev?

Lindsay no.2 wrote:

taipan wrote:

Lindsay no.2 wrote:

PeterCS wrote:To me it's also a Big Bell Conundrum. In other words, who to bring in at 3.

Holy shit batman - that's too big a challenge to solve

Bell will not get dropped yet - during or post SA series (depending on how he fares would be my guess).

I have advocated Root to be the 3 long-term - so maybe they should do it in UAE (but people seem loathe to move someone from a batting slot where they're churning out the runs, irrespective of the fact he's been effectively acting as a 3 as he's been coming in routinely in the early overs).

Overall then 3 of the top 5 batting slots are f*cked and replacements are thin on the ground, is that the general consensus?

Given that Stokes only averaged 25 for the series, 6 also looks fairly problematical.

He might fare better if the 5 in front of him could deliver stronger positions for him to come in at.

I don't see him as a weak point though. His atttitude is generally right - he doesn't look over-awed, rather he looks right up for it. He doesn't appear to have big technical flaws that could be exploited by the oppo bowlers. Maybe a bit too cavalier a bit too soon sometimes - but perhaps we just have to live with that. Let's see what he can do against spin in the UAE - can he develop a game against that which is more than just looking to smash it.

I would say 6 is still a specialist batting position regardless of what went before. I suppose it's the old all rounder question. But if he knuckles down and gets the hard runs, he might be the man.

Brass Monkey wrote:

PeterCS wrote:

Winkle Spinner wrote:Basically what Growler said but Bairstow for Buttler.

I don't know. It's a teaser.

I saw Jonny bat twice in the flesh (perhaps rephrase that) in the last three days. Liked the cut of his jib, the run-seeking, hard-sprinting, and suddenly technically proficient approach - until he played one ugly balloon hoick straight down the waiting boundary fielder's throat and one England-1990s tentative prod. Excellent in the field too. Anticipation, speed, arm.

I wasn't at the ground, so didn't see him in the flesh - but he looked almost as big a technical wreck up as ever - scored most of his runs by way of the edge to third man... abominable technique against the spinner, unless hard-handed lunges are in vogue.

Well, I didn't study the closeups, except those shown on the big screens (doubling as scoreboards). But binoculars gave some impression of mien.

But what I saw - notably in the second innings - looked suspiciously like a batsman who's worked out a decent way of playing (and scoring off) Johnson's fast bouncers. Which had been his undoing in his first innings back in Tests. And something he would not be much used to in County cricket. And is a problem for any batsman: I'm not sure the mighty AB would entirely thrill at a regular battering of MJ approaching his best, on a strip that offered him enough help.

As I saw it, he scored at least three fours by (deliberately, to judge by body language, bat angle and head position) playing the ball DOWN off the angled bat between slips and gully to (unguarded) third man.

Seems good to me, effective, and useful for the morale of keeping the scoreboard ticking too. And low-risk, so long as he angled the ball DOWN and got enough bat on it. Which - unless I completely mistook what was happening - he did.

"Ah, but what if Clarke had closed the gap with a third man, or added a fourth and fifth slip (couple more gullies, etc etc)?"

It's tempting to say that Bairstow would either have looked to score through the thus vacated areas (because Clarke never likes to abandon mid-on, mid-off and at least one other forward of the wicket fielder, point or fine leg/long leg or both would have had to be sacrificed). Or else let the scoring slow, and just leave the snorters pass wide of his nose, shoulders and chest. (In any case, effectively playing DOWN .... reduces the risk quite a bit.) And wait for the non-snorters to cut and pull/hook - where there was no longer a fielder set waiting. Bairstow certainly does not lack courage, to judge by the cut of him.

Or drive the odd Johnsonesque pitched-up delivery into the broad acres in front of the wicket.

Maybe I was at another match!

As it happened, he succumbed softly to the breath down the neck, and a timid shot to Nath Lyon. Off the helmet and juggly-buggly and all, but half-hearted shot. Should have swept the neck-breather's head off his arse.

In other words, a "hard-handed lunge" might have been pretty useful against the ball he got out to. Hospitalisation is never nice, but the fielder welcomes that risk. ...