England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by PeterCS on Fri 11 Aug 2017, 22:55

As I tried to explain my viewpoint on some other thread (can't remember which), I don't think it's the arrogant complacency that is the usual diagnosis.

I think it's an enduring problem for British - more especially, English - teams in living with the position of top dogs. They too often seem unable to cope with that sort of pressure of expectation from supporters, media, that should really be less pressure than grappling with the best teams. Fear of flopping, or something.

Another sort of lack of professional toughness, in other words.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by lardbucket on Sat 12 Aug 2017, 03:54

Stoneman at 30 "too old"?  Not at all, says MEK Hussey.

If he's any good, and up to it in the field, he can still fashion a 5-6 year career as an opener.

Brian Luckhurst was 31-32 when he debuted in an Ashes series; he did OK.  Reckon England would be happy if Stoneman played as well as Luckhurst, and delirious if he matches Hussey's efforts.

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Sat 12 Aug 2017, 09:35

Players do mature at different times, although there's always the "why wasn't he good enough 5 years ago" argument... in Stoneman's case, playing on the bowler-friendly Durham wickets for most of his career won't have helped him build up eye-catching stats, and he's stepped up to another level with Surrey this season.

As I've said with other recent call-ups though, you really have to hit the ground running, as there's no case for sticking with someone debuting at that sort of age on the grounds that they might develop into a top class player in a couple of years' time. They're either up to the task now or never will be.

There is an issue to be looked at in terms of why we're not getting any young top order batsmen really making any sort of strong case for Test selection though.

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by Basil on Sat 12 Aug 2017, 10:41

beamer wrote:

There is an issue to be looked at in terms of why we're not getting any young top order batsmen really making any sort of strong case for Test selection though.

Pitches! The variety in our playing surfaces is being eroded. Batsmen don't get the experience they need by playing on raging bunsens, greentops etc. So long as they can swing through the ball without their feet being anywhere near the line - that's fine by them.

And then there's coaching - coaches need to spend an inordinate amount of time with players as they perfect their ramps, reverse ramps and switch hits.

Players are, I would wager, spending more time in the gym bulking up at the expense of time spent in the nets, honing (say) a technique against the short ball.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by taipan on Sat 12 Aug 2017, 10:47

beamer wrote:Players do mature at different times, although there's always the "why wasn't he good enough 5 years ago" argument... in Stoneman's case, playing on the bowler-friendly Durham wickets for most of his career won't have helped him build up eye-catching stats, and he's stepped up to another level with Surrey this season.

As I've said with other recent call-ups though, you really have to hit the ground running, as there's no case for sticking with someone debuting at that sort of age on the grounds that they might develop into a top class player in a couple of years' time. They're either up to the task now or never will be.

There is an issue to be looked at in terms of why we're not getting any young top order batsmen really making any sort of strong case for Test selection though.

Doesn't Jennings also come from Durham?
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by Lindsay no.2 on Sat 12 Aug 2017, 23:03

PeterCS wrote:As I tried to explain my viewpoint on some other thread (can't remember which), I don't think it's the arrogant complacency that is the usual diagnosis.

I think it's an enduring problem for British - more especially, English - teams in living with the position of top dogs. They too often seem unable to cope with that sort of pressure of expectation from supporters, media, that should really be less pressure than grappling with the best teams. Fear of flopping, or something.

Another sort of lack of professional toughness, in other words.

Ahh now then, I wonder how many of us have been there..Wink

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 21:58

Basil wrote:
beamer wrote:

There is an issue to be looked at in terms of why we're not getting any young top order batsmen really making any sort of strong case for Test selection though.

Pitches! The variety in our playing surfaces is being eroded. Batsmen don't get the experience they need by playing on raging bunsens, greentops etc. So long as they can swing through the ball without their feet being anywhere near the line - that's fine by them.

And then there's coaching - coaches need to spend an inordinate amount of time with players as they perfect their ramps, reverse ramps and switch hits.

Players are, I would wager, spending more time in the gym bulking up at the expense of time spent in the nets, honing (say) a technique against the short ball.
There is a bit of a question as to whether (Div 1) county cricket has gone soft over the last few years, with fewer top overseas players, restrictions on quality Kolpaks etc. But I suppose we're still producing quality all-rounders and players who can thrive on being good strikers of the ball in the middle order. There may be a lack of genuine pace bowlers but surely the new ball moves around and top order players in England will always have to deal with that until climate change does its thing?

Finding Test openers has been a challenge globally for a few years now, and it may well be that teams eventually go for something more radical, like just looking to smash a few runs off the new ball and saying we may as well be 80-3 as 40-3 after 15 overs? Then have the best technical batsmen at numbers 4 to 8 perhaps...

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by horace on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 22:56

Interesting discussion. Oz producers reasonable bowlers, esp quicks, but the batting is limited. We notably produced the worst no 6 in Test history. Outside Smith there is no A grade batsmen. Renshaw and Handscomb may develop into reliable B graders.

The GCS needs to lose his passport. He is Marsh like overseas.Who knows with Maxwell - great talent, but no sense. It has been ages since Uber Koala had a hit and I've forgotten if he can play.

Behind that 6 the stocks are thin. The NSP can be counted on to appall. Expect the useless Marsh's will get more chances to fail. Patterson and Hughes may also be in the thoughts of the NSP. Form will be ignored especially when it involves bats from SA, Qld, Tas or Vic.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 23:24

So who does have the best top six in Tests? Probably India by default, but they're still patchy or untested outside the subcontinent.

Eng, Aus, SA and NZ each have one "A grade" player. The rest, well, they don't...

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by skully on Mon 14 Aug 2017, 00:10

Yup beams, batting sides around the world are pretty fragile ATM. The days of a line up like Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Mark Waugh, Steve Waugh, Martyn, Gilchrist (which would make any attack cry just reading it) are long gone.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Mon 14 Aug 2017, 07:57

skully wrote:Yup beams, batting sides around the world are pretty fragile ATM. The days of a line up like Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Mark Waugh, Steve Waugh, Martyn, Gilchrist (which would make any attack cry just reading it) are long gone.
Thankfully, for the sake of competitive cricket!

The more worrying thing than the lack of top quality individual batsmen is how teams tend to fold when things go against them. Most Tests are decided on day 2 now.

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by horace on Mon 14 Aug 2017, 08:08

beamer wrote:
skully wrote:Yup beams, batting sides around the world are pretty fragile ATM. The days of a line up like Hayden, Langer, Ponting, over rated Kjnr, Redinkus Maximus Ksnr, Martyn, Gilchrist (which would make any attack cry just reading it) are long gone.
Thankfully, for the sake of competitive cricket!

The more worrying thing than the lack of top quality individual batsmen is how teams tend to fold when things go against them. Most Tests are decided on day 2 now.

At least Oz had a go most of the time on the BanIndia tour. The Bannies of course have always failed here.

There does seem to be some dire mismatches.

Sorry, I had to fix the Skully quote for historical accuracy.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Mon 14 Aug 2017, 08:22

It's not just mismatches as such. Ashes 2015, 3-2 but every individual match one-sided. Likewise the recent England-SA series. Nobody seemingly has the patience to fight their way back into a match now, it's just play some hopeful loose shots and get it over with. 5 sessions to save a Test? Take inspiration from Atherton and Russell, or just take the opportunity for an extra day off? It's invariably the latter nowadays.

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by taipan on Mon 14 Aug 2017, 08:31

Maybe there is too much international cricket being played.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Mon 14 Aug 2017, 08:45

Or just that the T20 mindset has taken over this generation of players...

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by horace on Mon 14 Aug 2017, 11:56

beamer wrote:Or just that the T20 mindset has taken over this generation of players...

No doubt you are right. T20 does not have a premium on wins, compared to individual performances. This may have infected Test cricket, particularly the loss of endurance, especially from the tail when they need to play time. Maybe the trend to picking specialist teams will help. Renshaw and Handscomb are specialist long form players. No shock they play with grit. Even Lyon who is crap at T20 and 50 over shows more grit with bat in Tests than his ability warrants.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by Basil on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 08:08

lardbucket wrote:Stoneman at 30 "too old"?  Not at all, says MEK Hussey.

If he's any good, and up to it in the field, he can still fashion a 5-6 year career as an opener.

Brian Luckhurst was 31-32 when he debuted in an Ashes series; he did OK.  Reckon England would be happy if Stoneman played as well as Luckhurst, and delirious if he matches Hussey's efforts.

I think Stoneman is keeping a place warm for Hameed, who I expect to tour this winter come what may.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 08:45

horace wrote:
beamer wrote:Or just that the T20 mindset has taken over this generation of players...

No doubt you are right. T20 does not have a premium on wins, compared to individual performances. This may have infected Test cricket, particularly the loss of endurance, especially from the tail when they need to play time. Maybe the trend to picking specialist teams will help. Renshaw and Handscomb are specialist long form players. No shock they play with grit. Even Lyon who is crap at T20 and 50 over shows more grit with bat in Tests than his ability warrants.
I think we see it in the field to an extent as well. A wicketless session and heads drop, they're not used to it and don't have the patience to work for a breakthrough... somewhat rarer than the batting collapse given the lack of real quality Test batsmen about, but even with a tailender at the crease it can happen, when a fielding side is behind in the game.

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by PeterCS on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 11:40

Basil wrote:
lardbucket wrote:Stoneman at 30 "too old"?  Not at all, says MEK Hussey.

If he's any good, and up to it in the field, he can still fashion a 5-6 year career as an opener.

Brian Luckhurst was 31-32 when he debuted in an Ashes series; he did OK.  Reckon England would be happy if Stoneman played as well as Luckhurst, and delirious if he matches Hussey's efforts.

I think Stoneman is keeping a place warm for Hameed, who I expect to tour this winter come what may.

Remains to be seen how Stoneman "shapes up", and indeed how Hameed progresses, but if they both look promising in a month or two, I'd have no objection to them both going.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by skully on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 12:41

horace wrote:
skully wrote:Yup beams, batting sides around the world are pretty fragile ATM. The days of a line up like Hayden, Langer, Ponting, over rated Kjnr, Redinkus Maximus Ksnr, Martyn, Gilchrist (which would make any attack cry just reading it) are long gone.

Sorry, I had to fix the Skully quote for historical accuracy.

Will you ever let it go, h? I'm stoked that you have relented on your unrelenting whinging about Fleas, at last. Cool
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by Fred Nerk on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 13:33

I'd put that down to memory loss as likely as anything...

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by horace on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 15:32

Phurt....no one bothers to discuss the Serbo Chokarian nowadays...damn good thing....as for skullywags question the answer is no.

Kjnr continues to fark Oz cricket in his role on the NSP. He has championed Reeks ffs and the worst no 6 in Test history.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by beamer on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 18:48

PeterCS wrote:
Basil wrote:
lardbucket wrote:Stoneman at 30 "too old"?  Not at all, says MEK Hussey.

If he's any good, and up to it in the field, he can still fashion a 5-6 year career as an opener.

Brian Luckhurst was 31-32 when he debuted in an Ashes series; he did OK.  Reckon England would be happy if Stoneman played as well as Luckhurst, and delirious if he matches Hussey's efforts.

I think Stoneman is keeping a place warm for Hameed, who I expect to tour this winter come what may.

Remains to be seen how Stoneman "shapes up", and indeed how Hameed progresses, but if they both look promising in a month or two, I'd have no objection to them both going.  
Yeah, we'll surely take three openers anyway. Nobody else who could obviously stand in from the current line-up expect the captain and perhaps Mo.

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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by skully on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 11:03

Just realised this is a D/N Test, hence the lack of coverage from 8 pm Aus time.

If previous Aus pink ball Tests are anything to go by, this will be a tough one for the batsmen and the game will be over in 3 days.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

Post by skully on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 14:15

Roach gets Stoneman early.
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Re: England v West Indies, 1st Test, Edgbaston, 17-21 August, 2017

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