England ratings.

Of course, if Bell had got out cheaply in the second innings in Napier, you wouldn't have put it past England to collapse in a heap, leaving New Zealand 300 to chase on the flattest of flat wickets.

Fair comment Chas.

Simply because he's never really performed when under the pump, much as I like the lad, I think that if we must drop a batsman for Freddy to returnag ainst SA - he's really the one to step aside. We will need people who can scrap it out when they arrive.

Growler wrote:Thats the thing JK - had one of the top order stayed around with Bell - its possible thew two could have saved the match.

I thought at the time it was a bit harsh on Bell - I got the feeling he was (almost) being blamed for running out of tail-end partners, when the anger was more deserved elsewhere.

Well we all know Ian Bell has to score twice the amount of runs than everybody else, more stylishly and fart the national anthem at the same time.

JKLever wrote:
Well we all know Ian Bell has to score twice the amount of runs than everybody else, more stylishly and fart the national anthem at the same time.

Not at all, but it's quite matter of fact that one will have to go. I just don't think that Colly gifts his wicket away enough to be the one. Vaughan is skipper, no matter who likes it and Cook has reasonably frequent tons to point at. KP doesn't even deserve a mention. That leaves Strauss and Bell. I'm quite happy for it to be Strauss, I think he's the better batsman as a package - much more limited stroke play(nowadays) but much more grit. The facts are, Bell has statistically performed in his last two series - that is undeniable, flat analysis tells us that. How we have personally construed these runs is immaterial.

JKLever wrote:

Growler wrote:Thats the thing JK - had one of the top order stayed around with Bell - its possible thew two could have saved the match.

I thought at the time it was a bit harsh on Bell - I got the feeling he was (almost) being blamed for running out of tail-end partners, when the anger was more deserved elsewhere.

Well we all know Ian Bell has to score twice the amount of runs than everybody else, more stylishly and fart the national anthem at the same time.

Please, now your being just plain daft. Thats not the case at all. The point is how many of his test runs, test 100's have come in games when England were in the poop, as opposed to when things were easy and the pressure was off?

As Danny has said. Yeah his stats stack up apart from the 100's which he sorted in the last test. However the point point is when those runs were scored, and how you and I wish to view them.

I view them as pressure off situations, and no runs when runs were actually needed by his team!

He so nearly saw England to a draw in the first test against Sri Lanka last year, before missing a straight one from Murali. That was a pressure situation, and he and Prior teamed up and almost saw England to safety.

He also made 60 odd against Australia in the last Ashes, helping England to re-group after they found themselves 20-2 on an absolute belter of an Adelaide wicket.

Hardly Botham 81 like efforts, but it's not as if he completely turns to mud when the pressure is on him.

His rodent like features don't help his cause much, either. It's quite easy to be annoyed by him.

holcs wrote:

I view them as pressure off situations, and no runs when runs were actually needed by his team!

I'm exhausted flogging this point ... fact remains Bell is pretty when the pressure is off.

Again, to repeat myself - he has no bottle to knuckle down and produce the goods in a scrap.

I don't know why you guys hate on Bell, he's probably your most consistent bat behind KP and Cook.

holcs wrote:

Please, now your being just plain daft.

Sure, but it does seem that way at times...

How in Hamilton were those runs not made under pressure? Sure, a lot came when the game was lost but at least he was still standing! I and probably he will accept that's where he needs to improve his game though..

Too big a talent to drop for someone who 'might' or might not fare no better...

JKLever wrote:

holcs wrote:

Please, now your being just plain daft.

Sure, but it does seem that way at times...

How in Hamilton were those runs not made under pressure? Sure, a lot came when the game was lost but at least he was still standing! I and probably he will accept that's where he needs to improve his game though..

Too big a talent to drop for someone who 'might' or might not fare no better...

So we stick with Fair weather Bell at the expense of someone who might come in and turn out scores when it matters? Thats the problem and why he never fears for his place. He's too talented. And yet how many tests has he played, and it hasn't improved.

This is the problem IMO. If he gets dropped. Goes back to FCC and actually works on his game etc, it may well help, either a kick up the bum or even his mental attitude. However you keep him all safe and snuggled within the England setup and he will never do anything different.

As for Trev's comments. Yes nearly, then missed a straight one. Or nearly this.

What good is bl00dy nearly if the result of the match is still a loss?

holcs wrote:

What good is bl00dy nearly if the result of the match is still a loss?

it's hardly his fault if the others in the team didn't back him up is it?

Anyhow, we've long disagreed on Bell haven't we? Yes I can see he is frustrating but i just cant bring myself to drop him - maybe it's those cheeky elvish chops of his?

More importantly - what's your opinion on Sajid Mahmood? Dello has been showing far too much love for Saj lately.

JKLever wrote:

holcs wrote:

What good is bl00dy nearly if the result of the match is still a loss?

it's hardly his fault if the others in the team didn't back him up is it?

Anyhow, we've long disagreed on Bell haven't we? Yes I can see he is frustrating but i just cant bring myself to drop him - maybe it's those cheeky elvish chops of his?

More importantly - what's your opinion on Sajid Mahmood? Dello has been showing far too much love for Saj lately.

We certainly have. Hmmmm. i'm biting my tongue. Missing a straight one led to the collapse..... Couldn't resist sorry.

Yes we have, and i've said before, once he puts up in pressure situations then he definately has the ability to be a good test player! But at the moment, he needs to be given a shake down to say buck up basically.

As for Saj. Never really rated him as such as a test bowler when he was in the side. Another who was brought in to early and never cut the mustard. Probably because he didn't actually know how to bowl. Didn't know his game.

He has all the attributes, much like Bell I would say, however both need to work on their game IMO in FCC, learn their games, and then they can execute them like Sibo has.

Yeah saw the love fest developing it has to be said!

Saj has a high calibre stock delivery, it's just he was too inexperienced to get it sorted every ball. He was experimenting too much at the highest level. His jaffas simply cannot be discounted.

Brass Monkey wrote:Saj has a high calibre stock delivery, it's just he was too inexperienced to get it sorted every ball. He was experimenting too much at the highest level. His jaffas simply cannot be discounted.

Yup, but the rest was tripe! Lacked the knowledge of his own game IMO.

holcs wrote: Lacked the knowledge of his own game IMO.

Thats my biggest gripe with Saj - not very cricket smart IMO

Either that or maybe it's because he's given the worst run of performances in ODI's by an England bowler i've ever seen.

holcs wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:Saj has a high calibre stock delivery, it's just he was too inexperienced to get it sorted every ball. He was experimenting too much at the highest level. His jaffas simply cannot be discounted.

Yup, but the rest was tripe! Lacked the knowledge of his own game IMO.

Aye, he did pick up sticks when not injured last year. Basically, I reckon he's still not ready. But he will be within a year. He's got to do it.

Brass Monkey wrote:

holcs wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:Saj has a high calibre stock delivery, it's just he was too inexperienced to get it sorted every ball. He was experimenting too much at the highest level. His jaffas simply cannot be discounted.

Yup, but the rest was tripe! Lacked the knowledge of his own game IMO.

Aye, he did pick up sticks when not injured last year. Basically, I reckon he's still not ready. But he will be within a year. He's got to do it.

Exactly. No point in being quick tall and able to swing it, if 4 of your balls an over are hittable. Even the fastest quick bowlers don't spray it about. They still create pressure.

Saj didn't do that for me, and I confess I saw nothing of him last year in FCC.

holcs wrote:
Exactly. No point in being quick tall and able to swing it, if 4 of your balls an over are hittable. Even the fastest quick bowlers don't spray it about. They still create pressure.

Saj didn't do that for me, and I confess I saw nothing of him last year in FCC.

Saw a couple of matches on TV I think, where he got murdered - he was uninspiring his first couple of matches back. As I say, not now but soon or else we shouldn't bother.

Makaveli wrote:I don't know why you guys hate on Bell, he's probably your most consistent bat behind KP and Cook.

Aye. He contributes a lot. 18 50s and 7 tons is a pretty decent haul in 36 Tests. He has two problems. His nerves under pressure and converting 50s into hundreds. The second is probably the biggest.


If he can just sort out his mentals and conversions he could be a fantastic batsman.

He's got the technique. I didn't use to think much of it -> good shots, but inept against pace and spin. Now I'm not so sure. It's his brains I reckon. And his brains have made him not score vital runs, only pretty chip ins. There's no telling match-winning performances in context and that's my main beef.

Brass Monkey wrote:He's got the technique. I didn't use to think much of it -> good shots, but inept against pace and spin. Now I'm not so sure. It's his brains I reckon. And his brains have made him not score vital runs, only pretty chip ins. There's no telling match-winning performances in context and that's my main beef.

Bingo!!!

holcs wrote:
Bingo!!!

That be the crux of it though Chas, we've never been complaining that 'oh, he looks shit with a bat in his hand' etc. etc. it's the lack of telling innings. The pro-Bells would point to a 60 in Aus or his tons against Pak, but they weren't battled match-winners - they were 'by-the-by'.

When he played against us he was allways the hardest to get out, i don't know what's wrong with England fans, some are even starting to hate on Ali Cook, the guy is young and has tons of talent, i know we'd kill for an opener like him.

Makaveli wrote:When he played against us he was allways the hardest to get out, i don't know what's wrong with England fans, some are even starting to hate on Ali Cook, the guy is young and has tons of talent, i know we'd kill for an opener like him.

When, abroad or here? It was his most admirable series IMO - the one abroad. Over here, frankly you had a dross attack that'd usually been battered by our top 5 and he milked a lot of PT bowling.

As for Cook, I expect we're used to consistancy. He hasn't got it yet. I don't hate him.

Brass Monkey wrote:

Makaveli wrote:When he played against us he was allways the hardest to get out, i don't know what's wrong with England fans, some are even starting to hate on Ali Cook, the guy is young and has tons of talent, i know we'd kill for an opener like him.

When, abroad or here? It was his most admirable series IMO - the one abroad. Over here, frankly you had a dross attack that'd usually been battered by our top 5 and he milked a lot of PT bowling.

As for Cook, I expect we're used to consistancy. He hasn't got it yet. I don't hate him.

Aye agree with you about the sh!te attack that series but in the last test when Asif was back he still batted well. And yes his series in Pak was his best, and it came in a time where imo Shoaib was at his best.

Cook is still young you need to give him time, i'm certain he will come conistantly good, infact imo he's in the pool of current young players who will go on and dominate the game for years to come.