Lahore, Pakistan

The One wrote:lot of bowling talent (two great bowlers and some very good ones), not much in batting. almost a reverse bombay

what have london or sydney produced? or even the tiny island of barbados

PlanetPakistan wrote:Screw you terrorists!

PlanetPakistan wrote:HAS it helped?


you simply can't solve problems through a mindless barrage of guns, garnades and drones....

Chandan wrote:

PlanetPakistan wrote:HAS it helped?


you simply can't solve problems through a mindless barrage of guns, garnades and drones....

Actually that is the problem Faisal. How do you solve the problem when you do not know what the problem is exactly and what do these damn terrorists want?!

Anyway, great talent from Lahore city alone but Imran's saturday interview in times online has disappointed me really!!

“Almost all the terrorism taking place here since 2004 when Pakistan sent its army into the tribal areas has been suicide attacks. Last year there were over 100 suicide attacks – but they have a pattern. They are always in retaliation.”

This weekâ€s ambush by 12 gunmen was, he says, different. “They had an escape route – it was well planned. I certainly donâ€t think this was done by ideological terrorists, motivated to blow themselves up.”

Two ways of saying the same thing, this so called war against terror has made things worse and has to be immediately stopped. The RAW element in places in Baluchistan and NWFP has also been documented about and they need to get out of there, those folks aren't just enemies of Pakistan but they are enemies of India as well because if Pakistan goes down it is certainly going to have a huge(read negative) impact on India as well.

PlanetPakistan wrote:The RAW element in places in Baluchistan and NWFP has also been documented about and they need to get out of there, those folks aren't just enemies of Pakistan but they are enemies of India as well because if Pakistan goes down it is certainly going to have a huge(read negative) impact on India as well.

Few things annoy me as much as the claim often advanced by well-meaning but woolly- headed (and usually Punjabi) liberals to the effect that when it comes to India and Pakistan, "We’re all the same people, yaar."

This may have been true once upon a time. Before 1947, Pakistan was part of undivided India and you could claim that Punjabis from West Punjab (what is now Pakistan) were as Indian as, say, Tamils from Madras.

But time has a way of moving on. And while the gap between our Punjabis (from east Punjab which is now the only Punjab left in India) and our Tamils may actually have narrowed, thanks to improved communications, shared popular culture and greater physical mobility, the gap between Indians and Pakistanis has now widened to the extent that we are no longer the same people in any significant sense.

This was brought home to me most clearly by two major events over the last few weeks.

The first of these was the attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team on the streets of Lahore. In their defence, Pakistanis said that they were powerless to act against the terrorists because religious fanaticism was growing. Each day more misguided youngsters joined jihadi outfits and the law and order situation worsened.

Further, they added, things had got so bad that in the tribal areas the government of Pakistan had agreed to suspend the rule of law under pressure from the Taliban and had conceded that sharia law would reign instead. Interestingly, while most civilised liberals should have been appalled by this surrender to the forces of extremism, many Pakistanis defended this concession.

Imran Khan (Keble College, Oxford, 1973-76) even declared that sharia law would be better because justice would be dispensed more swiftly! (I know this is politically incorrect but the Loin of the Punjab’s defence of sharia law reminded me of the famous Private Eye cover when his marriage to Jemima Goldsmith was announced. The Eye carried a picture of Khan speaking to Jemima’s father. “Can I have your daughter’s hand?” Imran was supposedly asking James Goldsmith. “Why? Has she been caught shoplifting?” Goldsmith replied. So much for sharia law.)

Their victory set off a frenzy of rejoicing. We were proud of our countrymen. We were pleased that India’s entertainment industry and its veterans had been recognised at an international platform. And all three men became even bigger heroes than they already were.

But here’s the thing: Not one of them is a Hindu.

Can you imagine such a thing happening in Pakistan? Can you even conceive of a situation where the whole country would celebrate the victory of three members of two religious minorities? For that matter, can you even imagine a situation where people from religious minorities would have got to the top of their fields and were, therefore, in the running for international awards?

On the one hand, you have Pakistan imposing sharia law, doing deals with the Taliban, teaching hatred in madrasas, declaring jihad on the world and trying to kill innocent Sri Lankan cricketers. On the other, you have the triumph of Indian secularism.

The same people?

Surely not.

We are defined by our nationality. They choose to define themselves by their religion.
But it gets even more complicated. As you probably know, Rahman was born Dilip Kumar. He converted to Islam when he was 21. His religious preferences made no difference to his prospects. Even now, his music cuts across all religious boundaries. He’s as much at home with Sufi music as he is with bhajans. Nor does he have any problem with saying ‘Vande Mataram’.

Now, think of a similar situation in Pakistan. Can you conceive of a Pakistani composer who converted to Hinduism at the age of 21 and still went on to become a national hero? Under sharia law, they’d probably have to execute him.
Resul Pookutty’s is an even more interesting case. Until you realise that Malayalis tend to put an ‘e’ where the rest of us would put an ‘a,’ (Ravi becomes Revi and sometimes the Gulf becomes the Gelf), you cannot work out that his name derives from Rasool, a fairly obviously Islamic name

But here’s the point: even when you point out to people that Pookutty is in fact a Muslim, they don’t really care. It makes no difference to them. He’s an authentic Indian hero, his religion is irrelevant.
Can you imagine Pakistan being indifferent to a man’s religion? Can you believe that Pakistanis would not know that one of their Oscar winners came from a religious minority? And would any Pakistani have dared bridge the religious divide in the manner Resul did by referring to the primeval power of Om in his acceptance speech?
The same people?

Surely not.

Most interesting of all is the case of Gulzar who many Indians believe is a Muslim. He is not. He is a Sikh. And his real name is Sampooran Singh Kalra.

So why does he have a Muslim name?

It’s a good story and he told it on my TV show some years ago. He was born in West Pakistan and came over the border during the bloody days of Partition. He had seen so much hatred and religious violence on both sides, he said, that he was determined never to lose himself to that kind of blind religious prejudice and fanaticism.
Rather than blame Muslims for the violence inflicted on his community — after all, Hindus and Sikhs behaved with equal ferocity — he adopted a Muslim pen name to remind himself that his identity was beyond religion. He still writes in Urdu and considers it irrelevant whether a person is a Sikh, a Muslim or a Hindu.
Let’s forget about political correctness and come clean: can you see such a thing happening in Pakistan? Can you actually conceive of a famous Pakistani Muslim who adopts a Hindu or Sikh name out of choice to demonstrate the irrelevance of religion?

My point, exactly

What all those misguided liberals who keep blathering on about us being the same people forget is that in the 60-odd years since Independence, our two nations have traversed very different paths.
Pakistan was founded on the basis of Islam. It still defines itself in terms of Islam. And over the next decade as it destroys itself, it will be because of Islamic extremism.
India was founded on the basis that religion had no role in determining citizenship or nationhood. An Indian can belong to any religion in the world and face no discrimination in his rights as a citizen.
It is nobody’s case that India is a perfect society or that Muslims face no discrimination. But only a fool would deny that in the last six decades, we have travelled a long way towards religious equality. In the early days of independent India, a Yusuf Khan had to call himself Dilip Kumar for fear of attracting religious prejudice.
In today’s India, a Dilip Kumar can change his name to A.R. Rahman and nobody really gives a damn either way.
So think back to the events of the last few weeks. To the murderous attack on innocent Sri Lankan cricketers by jihadi fanatics in a society that is being buried by Islamic extremism. And to the triumphs of Indian secularism.

Same people?

Don’t make me laugh

The One wrote:

PlanetPakistan wrote:The RAW element in places in Baluchistan and NWFP has also been documented about and they need to get out of there, those folks aren't just enemies of Pakistan but they are enemies of India as well because if Pakistan goes down it is certainly going to have a huge(read negative) impact on India as well.

any credible source of that info outside pakistan?

The One wrote:

PlanetPakistan wrote:The RAW element in places in Baluchistan and NWFP has also been documented about and they need to get out of there, those folks aren't just enemies of Pakistan but they are enemies of India as well because if Pakistan goes down it is certainly going to have a huge(read negative) impact on India as well.

any credible source of that info outside pakistan?

PlanetPakistan wrote:RAW's hand in Baluchistan is quite well known really, even in NWFP a few militants have been caught.
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=17958

PlanetPakistan wrote:

The One wrote:

PlanetPakistan wrote:The RAW element in places in Baluchistan and NWFP has also been documented about and they need to get out of there, those folks aren't just enemies of Pakistan but they are enemies of India as well because if Pakistan goes down it is certainly going to have a huge(read negative) impact on India as well.

any credible source of that info outside pakistan?

RAW's hand in Baluchistan is quite well known really, even in NWFP a few militants have been caught.
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=17958

How ever despite the previous reports i am not 100% sure that RAW was involved in this particular attack and it will be better to stay quiet until the shooters are caught.

PlanetPakistan wrote:huh?

so you are denying RAW's involvement in not just NWFP but Baluchistan as well? thats pure denial mate.

In 1997, Prime Minister I.K. Gujral shut down both the CITs aimed at Pakistan on moral grounds. Before Gujral, Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao had ended RAW's eastern operations in the early 1990s, as part of his efforts to build bridges with China and Myanmar, say analysts.

Successive RAW leaders attempted to gain fresh authorization for deterrent covert operations, but without success, says Swami. Siddiqa writes: "The Indian government probably realized that encouraging covert warfare would not only destabilize bilateral relations but was also dangerous for the peace and stability of the entire region."