England 2005 v England 2009

Big_Bad_Bob wrote:

DJ_Smerk wrote:GoJo vs Prior


That's a tough one...

Aye. A dinger versus a donger.

Prior will make (even) more mistakes with the gloves, and get found out as a batsman.

Aye, he would have had a nightmare against Warney and Pidge in 2005. Some of the catches GoJo held onto, would have probably been shelled by Prior.

Henry wrote:Prior by a country mile. Jones's keeping was just as bad as Prior's, but Prior averages 20 runs more with the bat than Jones did.

Not this summer he won't.

Prior's average is inflated by big runs against pump attacks on flat wickets. Mr Overrated.

He won't average 30 against the Aussies.

Jones' keeping, whilst dire was still better than that of Prior.

Henry wrote:Why do people knock Prior's batting? He looks all class whenever I see him play. If you ignore his keeping and focus solely on his batting, it's hard to fault him.

Agreed. But some people can't see past his iron gloves...

Gojo had some lovely reaction catches in 2005, initially shelled into the air by Tres and snaffled by Jones.

JKLever wrote:

Henry wrote:Why do people knock Prior's batting? He looks all class whenever I see him play. If you ignore his keeping and focus solely on his batting, it's hard to fault him.

Agreed. But some people can't see past his iron gloves...

or Iron Footwork.


(note: I don't keep an eye on Priors footwork)

DJ_Smerk wrote:Gojo had some lovely reaction catches in 2005, initially shelled into the air by Tres and snaffled by Jones.

There was one at Old Trafford off Strauss.

Don't remember any others. Tres didn't drop 'em as a rule!

Big_Bad_Bob wrote:

DJ_Smerk wrote:Gojo had some lovely reaction catches in 2005, initially shelled into the air by Tres and snaffled by Jones.

There was one at Old Trafford off Strauss.

Don't remember any others. Tres didn't drop 'em as a rule!

I remember a wicket out in Pakistan off Shaun Udal, Tres palmed it into the air, Gojo backtracked and took a vital catch.


Probably what I was thinking of.

I stand by my original thoughts. I didn't say the individual players now are better - exactly not my point (JK and Bob both lined up the evidence man-for-man). I think there is mainly a collective self-assurance, a calm aggression, about the team as a whole.

Don't forget England just shaded the second Test - luckily, some would say, since Kasper apparently didn't touch it. Had that gone to the Aussies, it would have been 0-2, and I think I know what the rest of the series might have held. ... And it was only from there that the England team, and players, started to forge on. (Just as, by grim symmetry, 18 months later the reverse in the Second Test, after seeming well in front and on the way to equalising the series, was the death blow to morale and by the same token a strong dose of invincibility for the Aussie squad.)

This time I think - without any bullshit hype of previous good form - the present squad/team is unlikely to buckle. And goes in with genuine hopes. The new players like Bopara, Prior (Bob!), Swann, Broad and Anderson renaissant don't believe they are born or expect second best.

The only individuals that I think the present team really miss from 2005 are precisely the accurately confident seam pair: SiJo and above all, Fred. I'd like Hoggy to be there, but Sid on form is similar. Mick, yessss, as captain more than as batsman. Though I rate Strauss highly as captain, understated as he may be. Tres, well yes again, but he was very flat footed, a doughty biffer who came off some impotant times, but by no means always. Up and down form, a great starter when he was hot. I personally don't think Cook is a worse opener. Less aggressive, but better footwork, generally better judgment..

Flower is twenty times better than his compatriot Fletch. Intelligent, rather than intransigent.

Do you think Australia are weaker now than they were in 2005? If you think so then what is your ashes prediction? Has to be an England win by at least two tests if you think that Australia are weaker and England stronger surely?

Big_Bad_Bob wrote:

DJ_Smerk wrote:Gojo had some lovely reaction catches in 2005, initially shelled into the air by Tres and snaffled by Jones.

There was one at Old Trafford off Strauss.

Don't remember any others. Tres didn't drop 'em as a rule!

Aye, it was Strauss - an absolute howler at that: regulation catch, didn't get anywhere near it, ball thwacked into his thigh and rebounded towards Gojones.

Trescothick was pretty much a nailed on cert at first slip in that series.

vilkrang wrote:Do you think Australia are weaker now than they were in 2005? If you think so then what is your ashes prediction? Has to be an England win by at least two tests if you think that Australia are weaker and England stronger surely?

It's only a view, like anyone else's.

I think Australia are much weakened by the loss of three of their big four (a general view, surely): Langer, Pidge and above all Warne. And possibly weakened by the loss of Hayden, though I think he was finished by the time he ... errrm, finished.

A lot will depend on how well Hughes gets the Aussies off to a flying start, whether the captain and Clarke build on that, and most of all whether the Oz bowlers spark, including the still-assembling newcomers.

The key danger man is clearly Johnson. However confident and resilient England may or may not be batting, if Midge booms the ball into and across them and dismisses England for 200 each first innings, Australia will win.

So it's fairly open, I think. I am telling myself 1-3 to brace myself. Merlin jumped on me and yelled "Pessimist" in response to that. Which misses the point of the view I expressed entirely. I hope for a closer series than that. And an England win is certainly not out of the question.

In short, I think you describe the logic of what I said a bit too narrowly!

I just look at the way we've played the last 4 'big' series...

There's no way our attack is better than 05' - and for it to be anywhere close you're relying on the anderson cycle not kicking in again.

Henry wrote:Why do people knock Prior's batting? He looks all class whenever I see him play. If you ignore his keeping and focus solely on his batting, it's hard to fault him.

So play him as a batter and put Foster behind the sticks.

PeterCS wrote:I stand by my original thoughts. I didn't say the individual players now are better - exactly not my point (JK and Bob both lined up the evidence man-for-man). I think there is mainly a collective self-assurance, a calm aggression, about the team as a whole.

I truly hope you're right, Pete.

However, I'm not sure where the evidence of the 'collective self-assurance' in Test cricket comes from other than a clinical performance against an utterly uninterested West Indies side last month. That aside, we have been woeful in the longer form of the game for the majority of the last several years.

Bit of a leap of faith on your part, huge one in fact, though as I say, I obviously hope you're crowing it from the rooftops come the end of August.

PeterCS wrote:

Don't forget England just shaded the second Test - luckily, some would say, since Kasper apparently didn't touch it. Had that gone to the Aussies, it would have been 0-2, and I think I know what the rest of the series might have held. ... And it was only from there that the England team, and players, started to forge on. (Just as, by grim symmetry, 18 months later the reverse in the Second Test, after seeming well in front and on the way to equalising the series, was the death blow to morale and by the same token a strong dose of invincibility for the Aussie squad.)



.

He was also given not out when as plum as they come before he had double figures so England were unlucky not have won by 50 odd.

And Simon Jones shelled him at Deep Third Man.

Australia only just shaded the first Test. If England hadn't batted like cripples and caught like spastics, they might have sneaked a win against their able-bodied opponents.

No f*cking way... no f*cking way are this rabble any better. You can outline that simply - Fred was the difference; he averaged 40 and 27 in batting and bowling respectively for a 30-odd match period. It meant 5 bowlers and a nuggety batsman at 7.

That discounts the fact that Strauss was playing straigher, Vaughan could actually do it against the best and that Cook is nowhere near the player that Tres was.

Absolutely. Respect the right to your opinion Pete but you're nuts!