BLee - no balls.

Basil wrote:

PearlJ wrote:

please don't yell wrote:I still think lee might be entering his last home summer.

We have 3-4 young bowlers pushing for spots which we simply didn't have a a few years back so a bad summer for lee and he could be gone.

I don't think he will last the summer. I expect Hilfy, Johnson and Tait to be pushing for the 2 bowling spots.

Expect to hand over the Ashes then

Meh. I would prefer Tait to Mahmood or Plunkett.

Im not sure if you can put his loss of form since 2001 down to injury. It's not like he's lost a lot of pace since then. His excellent start was made against an Indian team caught on the hop by his extreme pace, New Zealand in New Zealand on pitches that were very sporting, and an awful West Indian team. Ashes 2001 was when a few cracks in the armoury started to appear, and he's never really fully recovered for any length of time, in the test arena at least.

He had to stop chucking every ball after the injury

Henry wrote:It's probably Steve Waugh's fault for hyping Lee up so much in the first place. Calling him a 'Once in a generation' bowler before he had even played a test.

Koala in premature talking up of fellow dubber shocker!

skully wrote:To be fair to Bung, he did burst onto the scene with great success. Up to and including the 2nd Test v Windies in 2000-01 (when he threw his elbow out throwing in from the boundary and then missed the rest of that season) he did live up to SRW's hype. His record to that point was 7 Tests, 42 wickets at 16.07 with 3 michelles, and a strike rate (from memory) in the low 40s.

... but weren't they mostly against India, on fast wickets?

He just doesn't have anything to fall back on when he doesn't have a helpful wicket.

lardbucket wrote:

skully wrote:To be fair to Bung, he did burst onto the scene with great success. Up to and including the 2nd Test v Windies in 2000-01 (when he threw his elbow out throwing in from the boundary and then missed the rest of that season) he did live up to SRW's hype. His record to that point was 7 Tests, 42 wickets at 16.07 with 3 michelles, and a strike rate (from memory) in the low 40s.

... but weren't they mostly against India, on fast wickets?

He just doesn't have anything to fall back on when he doesn't have a helpful wicket.

He fell back on pidge, didn't he?

The last Ashes series was when he was supposed to step up and show that Australia had a worthy successor to Glenn Mcgrath, but he hardly took a wicket until the series was already decided, whilst Stuart Clark overshadowed him. It summed up his career- A lot of talk from himself and in the media about how he was ready to step up, but in the end nothing more than moderate results on the field.

After 8 years as an international cricketer, I think it has been established that he just doesnt have the attributes that make a great fast bowler- Accuracy, a good cricket brain, and patience. He believes his own hype(As have his captains, it has to be said), and loses the plot too quickly when a batsman does something he isnt expecting, or an Umpire's decision goes against him. One lucky inside edge past the stumps tends to lead to frustration, and him resorting to bouncers and yorkers(That end up as half volleys), rather than the quick outswingers that get him so many wickets in ODI's.

In about 18 months, he'll start to lose the one thing that he does have in abundance- Pace, and he will fall out of the game pretty quickly, imo.

In the space of 12 months the great Alan Donald went from being an express bowler to a medium fast bowler and only sympathetic captains, coaches, and selectors, who didnt want to unceremoniously dump a great player, plus a great cricket brain on his shoulders, kept him in the South African side until 2003. But in truth from 2000 onwards he was never quite the same bowler that he once was.

Brett Lee is not as bad as painted.His strike rate is ok.
He can be expensive,but that happens to a fast bowler,particularly on slow pitches.The Aussie pitches are proving to be just that,slow or flat.For all the talk about how bad he is,I can't see any better bowlers in other teams.
I am sure Lee would love to bowl on some of the pitches Lillee, Donald and co bowled on in their time.

Henry wrote:The last Ashes series was when he was supposed to step up and show that Australia had a worthy successor to Glenn Mcgrath, but he hardly took a wicket until the series was already decided, whilst Stuart Clark overshadowed him. It summed up his career- A lot of talk from himself and in the media about how he was ready to step up, but in the end nothing more than moderate results on the field.

After 8 years as an international cricketer, I think it has been established that he just doesnt have the attributes that make a great fast bowler- Accuracy, a good cricket brain, and patience. He believes his own hype(As have his captains, it has to be said), and loses the plot too quickly when a batsman does something he isnt expecting, or an Umpire's decision goes against him. One lucky inside edge past the stumps tends to lead to frustration, and him resorting to bouncers and yorkers(That end up as half volleys), rather than the quick outswingers that get him so many wickets in ODI's.

In about 18 months, he'll start to lose the one thing that he does have in abundance- Pace, and he will fall out of the game pretty quickly, imo.

In the space of 12 months the great Alan Donald went from being an express bowler to a medium fast bowler and only sympathetic captains, coaches, and selectors, who didnt want to unceremoniously dump a great player, plus a great cricket brain on his shoulders, kept him in the South African side until 2003. But in truth from 2000 onwards he was never quite the same bowler that he once was.

Lee has never been as good as Donald was in his decline!

"Lee has never been as good as Donald was in his decline!"

Phurt...there was 4 overs in the 2005 Ashes ...

Donald's bowling average against Australia was 31,his strike rate
was 61.

Im not saying Lee is as good as Donald, im just using Donald as an example of a bowler who declined quite rapidly when he started to lose his pace.

Henry wrote:Im not saying Lee is as good as Donald, I'm just rabidly flapping my gums as usual. Take no notice, my medication will click in soon.

OK . . .

noelene wrote:Donald's bowling average against Australia was 31,his strike rate was 61.

But BLee never gets to bowl against Australia, so what kind of a comparison is that?

England haven't even always been the second best team and he averages 40 against us after about 20 games. Bloke is a shambles.

What nations does he have a good record against? I cant be bothered to check on statsguru, but im guessing he has a pretty good record against the Windies? Even Bangladesh spanked him around if I remember correctly.

noelene wrote:

I am sure Lee would love to bowl on some of the pitches Lillee, Donald and co bowled on in their time.

I'm sure Lillee would have liked to have bowled to the current shambolic bunch masquerading as the West Indies, let alone play 10% of his matches against the Zimboks and Bangles.

Who is this clueless noelene? A pass-take? Krusty? Some gimp from beyond the stars?

Henry wrote:What nations does he have a good record against? I cant be bothered to check on statsguru, but im guessing he has a pretty good record against the Windies? Even Bangladesh spanked him around if I remember correctly.

Stoopid forum...

Batfink Begins wrote:England haven't even always been the second best team and he averages 40 against us after about 20 games. Bloke is a shambles.

Sage

lardbucket wrote:

skully wrote:To be fair to Bung, he did burst onto the scene with great success. Up to and including the 2nd Test v Windies in 2000-01 (when he threw his elbow out throwing in from the boundary and then missed the rest of that season) he did live up to SRW's hype. His record to that point was 7 Tests, 42 wickets at 16.07 with 3 michelles, and a strike rate (from memory) in the low 40s.

... but weren't they mostly against India, on fast wickets?

He just doesn't have anything to fall back on when he doesn't have a helpful wicket.

2 Tests v India, 3 v Snoozers on their low, slow sheep paddocks, and 2 v Windies. Granted, not the greatest opposition but he did play the first 5 Tests on slow tracks (then stung the Windies at the Gabba and the WACA)and did put the fear of god into the batsmen. That was along, long time ago now.

Yeah skully, he bowled the best in the Sydney Test 5-odd years ago. And there's that 2nd innings at TB in '05. Shame about the other 18.5 Tests though.

I was annoyed with the minnow-bashing show-pony then (for keeping Reiffel and Fleming out of the team) and he's done little since with the ball to enthral.

I think he will only keep his Test place if his batting becomes more solid. He could still be a useful lower-order all-rounder. I don't think he can maintain a place solely as a bowler. He can't bowl a good long spell, he can't out-think batsmen, he bowls dross when we need him to be tight.

So we're agreed then - Lee is a pile of poo who has inexplicably taken 231 test wickets.

I think that sums it up.