Rugby World Cup 18 Sep - 31 Oct 2015

You know whilst England's bad discipline was deplorable, after two tough matches and with Australia getting a stroll so far the only thing the Wallabies have going for them is Lancaster's appaling use of the bench.

Some might claim that was exacerbated by the game situation but I'm not so sure. Cheika may have to be our sixteenth man.

vilkrang wrote:

taipan wrote:

vilkrang wrote:If you say you predicted Japan beating South Africa then you are either lying or mental.

If you made the effort of reading the thread you would understand that I made no such prediction.

The point I was trying to make is that SA is a supremely overrated team that had no hope of winning this WC.

No need to get so tetchy, I know you didn't make that prediction in the thread, however posting it after the Japan win I thought that was what you were implying.

But of course you didn't predict it. No one would have predicted it.

Still struggling to think of a bigger upset in any sport. Utterly incredible.

Belated congrats to Japan....I could hear coughing and spluttering here...apparently the Bok captain Hansie Devillliers is now injured...but we should not be unkind....rugger is a 3rd tier sport in SA, played by only a few people...soccer seems to be the the game of the people in SA.

Despite Taips downplaying of his team's chances, I expect he would have been as shocked as me. I really enjoyed the interviews with Eddie Jones after the game.

and belated congrats to the Welsh on knocking off the Pomgolians...a great shock but really nice. I doubt their is a more rugger centric mob than the Welsh

Well, shit or bust for England. (And possibly Scotland too.)

Can't say it's looking good. All the talk of "going all out", "giving it 110%" - even Lancaster making such noises, at least in public. "Biggest game ever", "do it for your country, your family", etc. etc.

The main problem with that message is that passion, commitment are not generally the problem for England when the chips are down. (Or talent, for that matter.) Rather, a set of cool heads, intelligent leadership, NOT "getting carried away". That's what goes disastrously missing. The David Sole. The Mike Brearley. The brain.

Towering passion, extreme straining of muscle and nerve, tend to lead quite quickly to enervation, nervous exhaustion and the bewildered wilting of effort (like trying to swim with all taut-to-breaking muscles and sinews, you don't get far). And yet, if you let yourself get carried away by the occasion, the pressure of expectation, the patriotic chest-beating, you're open to every single sucker-punch. And worse, beat yourself.

Way back in the 1970s even, Wales did not generally beat England (or the others - often excepting Ireland) by dint of greater talent, or "wanting it more". But often winning from losing positions by dint of ingenuity (Gareth Edwards kicks and trickery in adversity, Barry John or Phil Bennett jinking ...) .... and THINKING on your feet.

The quite likely nightmare scenario for England in their match this evening is that it starts with a bang (or handling in the ruck, argy-bargy, etc.). Dan Cole or some other patriotic, nostril-flaring arse gets sent to the bin, or off, then penalty after penalty, frustration and exasperation, two or eight other sendings-off, while the Aussies really get into their free-flowing stride. The England captain, having tried his best "Henry V" before or after the crashing anthems and bullshit - and thereby completely failed to address the real problem - still scratches his head in exasperation and doesn't for the life of him know what's gone wrong. Total Pete Tong, etc. Weren't we passionate enough?

That was a caricature of what for England usually goes arse-up. Happened so often.

Not too little effort, commitment. Perhaps too much. But far too little cool, clear thinking, intelligent focus, to make the most of the effort, commitment (and skill) that's generally there or thereabouts. Hence, mugs of passion.



NZ were error-riddled last night, from what I saw of the second half. (Credit to the hard-hitting Georgians.) Probably good for them to get the poor performance out of their system early. Cool analysis, reality & hybris check, etc. should stand them in good stead. NZ have often steamrollered and blistered their way through the early stages of WCs with cricket scores ... and then, unhardened, been mugged in one or other of the knock-out games.

Agree with you on the whole Peter. They know what's required, and shouldn't need to be pumped up any more. As you say, one of the biggest danger is the "rush of blood" moments we've seen too many of.

First priority - make sure we win.

Second priority - make sure we deny the Australians a losing bonus point, then the one we won against Fiji (which Aus & Wales didn't get) stands us in good stead.

Like I said after last weeks loss - we must keep our discipline. No stupid penalties in our own half would be a good start.

IMO, the Australian backs shade ours - but I think we have the better pack, so we need to play it tight, and force them into giving away the penalties. They will probably have to try and play a wide game, as a 10 - 12 of Farrell & Barritt are as good a defensive pair in the midfield as any just now. I just hope Joseph is fully fit, and that we're not having a gamble on him .... he is going to get some chelp, and if he does go off we could be in bother.

It probably won't be pretty, but I'm not bothered too much. Better an ugly win 15-7 than a pretty loss in a 7-try game. Any bonus point in a loss is no use to us .... its all or nowt now. That's why I'm glad too see us starting with our better kicker and defender (Farrell) at stand-off ahead of the more exciting but otherwise (very slightly) inferior Ford. If - and it is a big if (so no arrogance intended here) we should be in a position to chase a 4th try bonus point while holding a 2-score lead 15 minutes from time, then for sure bring on George to exploit what should hopefully be a tiring Australian defence.

Last thing for me - for heavens sake please don't bring the subs on just for the sake of it on the hour. That happened last week and we fell to pieces. If the starting XV are not injured or tired ..... leave them on if the match is still tight.

PeterCS wrote:Well, shit or bust for England. (And possibly Scotland too.)

Can't say it's looking good. All the talk of "going all out", "giving it 110%" - even Lancaster making such noises, at least in public. "Biggest game ever", "do it for your country, your family", etc. etc.

The main problem with that message is that passion, commitment are not generally the problem for England when the chips are down. (Or talent, for that matter.) Rather, a set of cool heads, intelligent leadership, NOT "getting carried away". That's what goes disastrously missing. The David Sole. The Mike Brearley. The brain.

Towering passion, extreme straining of muscle and nerve, tend to lead quite quickly to enervation, nervous exhaustion and the bewildered wilting of effort (like trying to swim with all taut-to-breaking muscles and sinews, you don't get far). And yet, if you let yourself get carried away by the occasion, the pressure of expectation, the patriotic chest-beating, you're open to every single sucker-punch. And worse, beat yourself.

Way back in the 1970s even, Wales did not generally beat England (or the others - often excepting Ireland) by dint of greater talent, or "wanting it more". But often winning from losing positions by dint of ingenuity (Gareth Edwards kicks and trickery in adversity, Barry John or Phil Bennett jinking ...) .... and THINKING on your feet.

The quite likely nightmare scenario for England in their match this evening is that it starts with a bang (or handling in the ruck, argy-bargy, etc.). Dan Cole or some other patriotic, nostril-flaring arse gets sent to the bin, or off, then penalty after penalty, frustration and exasperation, two or eight other sendings-off, while the Aussies really get into their free-flowing stride. The England captain, having tried his best "Henry V" before or after the crashing anthems and bullshit - and thereby completely failed to address the real problem - still scratches his head in exasperation and doesn't for the life of him know what's gone wrong. Total Pete Tong, etc. Weren't we passionate enough?

That was a caricature of what for England usually goes arse-up. Happened so often.

Not too little effort, commitment. Perhaps too much. But far too little cool, clear thinking, intelligent focus, to make the most of the effort, commitment (and skill) that's generally there or thereabouts. Hence, mugs of passion.



NZ were error-riddled last night, from what I saw of the second half. (Credit to the hard-hitting Georgians.) Probably good for them to get the poor performance out of their system early. Cool analysis, reality & hybris check, etc. should stand them in good stead. NZ have often steamrollered and blistered their way through the early stages of WCs with cricket scores ... and then, unhardened, been mugged in one or other of the knock-out games.

With all due respect saying Wales in the early 70s did not beat other teams because of greater talent is a total pile.

At least 6 of the Welsh team of that era would walk into an ATG Welsh team if not a World ATG Team.

The Welsh players of the era won the Lions series in both SA and NZ.

I see you mention Edwards and John. Let's discuss the likes of JPR, Gerald Davies, Mervyn Davies. All would have walked into a world team.

And oddly, I think England can win this one

taipan wrote:And oddly, I think England can win this one

Aust lead 15-3 at the half.

17-3 to be pedantic, and worth the lead - two chances very well taken, but not beyond our reach.

Growler wrote:17-3 to be pedantic, and worth the lead - two chances very well taken, but not beyond our reach.

Thanks growls. My match tracker had failed to add a conversion & i agree. England certainly not out of it.

Big Dog wrote:

taipan wrote:And oddly, I think England can win this one

Aust lead 15-3 at the half.

Yep, severely disappointing so far,

...and its goodby England.

Well there's the trifecta. 

Humiliated in the football World Cup, humiliated in the cricket World Cup, and now humiliated in the rugby World Cup. 

Good f*cking times.

You still have the Ashes.

Surprised that we won this ... the final score?

Congratulations to Australia ...... well worth the win, and outplayed us in every department.

I'm well impressed with the progress of the Aus pack - they have come on strongly over the last few months, and certainly took our lot by surprise. That said, taips will remember that before a ball was kicked I had doubts about our scrum and particularly lineout. Five penalties from the scrum is 4 too many, and the amount of ball we turned over was a incredible.

Somehow though, although this loss should feel worse than the reverse last week - it doesn't. Against Wales, we threw away a winning position through indiscipline ...... we could, and really should have won it. Tonight, we were always chasing the game, but not out of it by any means until the hour mark or so.

So long as we kept the ball moving, we always looked dangerous ..... until we took in into contact. We were so slow to the breakdown the ball was often heading towards the Aus back line by the time we got there.

Once again, the substitutions threw us out of shape. Agreed Joe Marler needed to be replaced once the ref began to ping him at the scrum. I can't help thinking it was a mistake having Sam Burgess on the bench rather than cover for full back/wingers. Replacing May with George Ford shoved Farrell to inside centre (he can cover that), Barritt to outside centre (out of position) and JJ to the wing. I always thought this WC was a year too early for Burgess, and IMO either Slade or Nowell would've been a better pick on the bench.

Anyway, there we are. Who is going to play who in the QF's ? All bets are off just now, I think. So many possibilities in the other groups with games outstanding and bonus points up for grabs. I think we'll have a couple more shocks before anyone gets their paws on the trophy.

lardbucket wrote:You still have the Ashes.

Surprised that we won this ... the final score?

33-13 lards.

Whilst it would be wrong to say it flatters you, it's fair to say that you may not have scored the final try at the death had we not been reduced to 14 men for the last 10 minutes. Owen Farrell got himself binned for leading with the shoulder in the tackle, and was a bit late. Had it still been 15 v 15 the score could have been 26-13, which wouldn't have flattered England.

If you continue to play like this, it isn't in the realms of fantasy for you to at least make the final. Your game against Wales will give everyone a better idea of how the quarters will pan out ...... and who you'll be playing - South Africa, Scotland or (an outside possibility) Japan. The latter would be one of the shocks I alluded to in my last post.

Have to say I am surprised and delighted with the win and the margin.

I don't understand the game well enough to really enjoy the win. Growing up in WA and Tas; it wasn't a game that had much traction, although the school I attended did have a side, and a Fijian uni mate of mine played.

Now, that didn't go altogether well, from an England perspective.

First things first: congratulations to an Australia squad that are looking stronger and stronger. Homework v well done not only to exploit England's weaknesses, but to neutralise usual strengths. Generally far faster to and in the play that mattered, notably into the tackle and at the breakdown (England too often looked ponderous), technically much better and tighter in the scrum too, with a series of penalties resulting. A couple of decisions may have been debatable - but they always are in rugby (esp union), where so many decisions are borderline this or possibly that. In any case, they did not affect the general trend of play, where England were both outthought and outplayed.

As for England: well, when even their better players fluff their lines (Brown's poor handling, missed tackles - admittedly making up for gaps left by his teammates - esp in the first half being a case in point), and when Jonny May is so much to the fore with his technical limitations ... then you know England are in big trouble.

Not a lot else to be said of this England performance - the mirror image of the features I praised in Australia above, so to speak - except that an overhaul seems to be needed. 8 teams of 20 in the tournament have/had a New Zealand coach. Maybe it's a good time for England meekly to follow suit


Australia looking very good, must now be worth an outside bet for the whole thing. I wonder if they can "do" New Zealand so thoroughly, though. Especially if NZ are at all streetwise, and learn better than England. As one would expect.

I was particularly stuck how technically proficient Australia were at accelerating, dipping and barreling into attempted tackles - very Rugby League. Thus breaking tackles, or at least carrying the momentum and drive to continue the possession (as the tackle is of diminished force and quality). Like wolves against all too anxious novices, all too often in this match.

Big Dog wrote:

Growler wrote:17-3 to be pedantic, and worth the lead - two chances very well taken, but not beyond our reach.

Thanks growls. My match tracker had failed to add a conversion & i agree. England certainly not out of it.

Outstanding stuff.

On the plus side, some of the biggest qunts in the country are rugby fans.

And also it's nice that our rugby team have finally shown some Englishness at a World Cup. They've never truly sunk to the same depths of ineptitude of our football and cricket teams but now they have.

vilkrang wrote:And also it's nice that our rugby team have finally shown some Englishness at a World Cup. They've never truly sunk to the same depths of ineptitude of our football and cricket teams but now they have.

So, you've played the game Vilks?

Big Dog wrote:

vilkrang wrote:And also it's nice that our rugby team have finally shown some Englishness at a World Cup. They've never truly sunk to the same depths of ineptitude of our football and cricket teams but now they have.

So, you've played the game Vilks?

Yeah, all through school. I used to be a tight head prop which now seems ridiculous as I'm tall and thin in the present day.

I remember seeing you on here with a tight head.