England v South Africa, 1st Test, Lord's 10-14 July (II)

ten years after wrote:

PeterCS wrote:

ten years after wrote:

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Two more runs for Bell to go past Jack Hobbs in the highest scores by an Englishman against SA list.

???

Alvin Lee's man: I think LalLa meant to say "two more runs and Ian Bell will go past Jack Hobbs on the list of highest scores achieved by England batsmen in a Test agsinst South Africa." But I may be wrong.

Yeah, but Hobbs scored 211.

I think L3 was referring to "The Master's" maiden Test century at Newlands in March 1910 when he made 187 in his 12th Test. However he did indeed score 211 against the Saffies at HQ just over 14 years later which remains the highest score by an England player against SA at Lord's (indeed in any domestic Test against those opponents). It was the record for any England player at Lord's until overtaken by Graham Gooch's 333 against India there in 1990. Hobbs was also the oldest player, at 41 years and 197 days to score a double century until that record was overtaken by Eric Rowan, for the Saffies, when he made 236, at the age of 42 years and 7 days, at Headingley in July 1951. (Hobbs is still the oldest player, at 46 years and 82 days, to score a century when he took 142 off the Australian attack at the MCG in March 1929).

Bell did break the record, previously held by Dennis Amiss (of blessed memory but rather indistinct perception- see mistake in response to one of L3's posts some pages back) for the highest score made by a Warwickshire player in a Lord's Test (Amiss scored 188 against India in June 1974 in an England total of 629 ). Amiss still holds the domestic record for a Warwickshire player in Tests of 203 v. the Windies at The Oval in 1976 (overtaken by Collingwood's 206 at Adelaide in December 2006 as the HS by an England player in a losing cause) as well as the overall Test record of 262* at Sabina Park in February 1974 (I have discounted Brian Lara's 375 at Antigua in April 1994 since, although he was registered as a Warwickshire player, he had still to appear for the county).

The record HS by an England player against SA is Eddie Paynter's 243 made in the 3rd Test at Kingsmead in January 1939. Paynter holds the distinction, with Lara, of taking double centuries off both the Australian and Saffie attacks. The overall HS against the Saffies is Jayawardene's 374 made at Colombo in July 2006.

FFS England.

Just when you think they're about to hit the biggest wall imaginable, as they barely overcome the 'might' of New Zealand, they go and have the world's second best side on the ropes after 3 days.

Did anyone else have a heart attack halfway through the last session yesterday when Nasser Hussain started a sentence by saying, "And i've got some bad news for Andrew Flintoff fans....."

Turns out Nasser just wanted to announce that Fred had been dismissed for 2 against Hampshire.

Henry wrote:Did anyone else have a heart attack halfway through the last session yesterday when Nasser Hussain started a sentence by saying, "And i've got some bad news for Andrew Flintoff fans....."

Turns out Nasser just wanted to announce that Fred had been dismissed for 2 against Hampshire.

Aye - I was expecting the words 'Broken' and 'Down' somewhere in there....

Anyhow - interesting day ahead tomorrow. It's normally always tougher to bowl a side out 2nd time around so i'd reckon on SA gritting it out.

Their batting has a vulnerable look about it though it has to be said.

Smith can't make a run against England since those 2 knocks in 2003

The top 6 looks reasonably solid but Bouchers form seems to have hit the downslide and SA's last 4 batsman reminds me of the 2004 Windians with Tino walking in at 8

On the flipside i've no doubt their bowling will hit its straps at sometime on this tour and gash us for a low score now and again

Nah - I'd been looking at the scores prior to Nasser's commentary and knew Flintoff had just walked out to bat.

As soon as he started with "bad news for Andrew Flintoff fans..." I knew he'd got another lowie. Thought it might've been a duck.

Been outbowled by Mahmood (11 wickets for 20s) so far since his comeback, don't you know? Funny old game...

Collingwood should be the one who make way for Fred, who could make up part of a 5 man attack at Headingley. All this talk of maybe making Flintoff 'earn' a recall is a bit of nonsense. Every time he plays for Lancs, he proves that he's probably the best fast bowler in England. He doesn't take a stack of wickets, but cricket isn't all about stats. He's not making a stack of runs, but there were signs last week that he might be finding a bit of nick with the bat, despite yesterdays low score (It happens with him). Can't be worse with the bat than Collingwood at the moment.....

Whatever happens during the rest of this game, South Africa will be better at Headingley- That is certain imo, and I think having Fred will be very handy. We shouldn't give them an opportunity to get up off the mat. Keep the boot on their throats etc.....

JKLever wrote:

The top 6 looks reasonably solid but Bouchers form seems to have hit the downslide and SA's last 4 batsman reminds me of the 2004 Windians with Tino walking in at 8

Well, England still let SA's supposedly long tail bag a good 50+ runs. I still fancy their 9, 10 and Jack to score more than Sid, Jammy and Monty.

And Boucher looks bang out of shape. Maybe it's just a big jumper he's wearing, but he looks like he's seen better days.

Kallis' arse is twice the size it was the last time SA toured, too.

Just a random observation.

Henry wrote:Collingwood should be the one who make way for Fred, who could make up part of a 5 man attack at Headingley. All this talk of maybe making Flintoff 'earn' a recall is a bit of nonsense. Every time he plays for Lancs, he proves that he's probably the best fast bowler in England. He doesn't take a stack of wickets, but cricket isn't all about stats. He's not making a stack of runs, but there were signs last week that he might be finding a bit of nick with the bat, despite yesterdays low score (It happens with him). Can't be worse with the bat than Collingwood at the moment.....

Whatever happens during the rest of this game, South Africa will be better at Headingley- That is certain imo, and I think having Fred will be very handy. We shouldn't give them an opportunity to get up off the mat. Keep the boot on their throats etc.....

I don't think he'll play. If England wrap this game up tomorrow, it'll be a thrashing and there'll be no need to rush Fred back.

There's a real issue with the balance of the side that they'll have to address - I'm sure they'd rather put that off as long as possible.

Dello wrote:

Kallis' arse is twice the size it was the last time SA toured, too.

Just a random observation.

Aye - it's getting close to Syd Lawrence proportions!

Dello wrote:

I don't think he'll play. If England wrap this game up tomorrow, it'll be a thrashing and there'll be no need to rush Fred back.

There's a real issue with the balance of the side that they'll have to address - I'm sure they'd rather put that off as long as possible.

From what all the press boys have been saying his return is a dead cert.

Can we really afford to have Flintoff bat 6 - I know Colly has contributed jack sh!t this year but he's more likely to dig out a score. Freds got lbw 1st ball written all over him.

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere as to a Prior/Fred double recall

a 6,7,8 of Prior,Fred,Broad looks good. Though we would have a wickie who can't catch a cold again... and it would be tough on Ambrose.

Broad's batting makes playing Fred or even Ambrose at 6 less of a risk.

I just hope they resist the temptation to move Broad up the order. He a perfect number 8. Give Ambrose another chance at Headingley, and if he fails again, consider Prior.

JKLever wrote:

Dello wrote:

I don't think he'll play. If England wrap this game up tomorrow, it'll be a thrashing and there'll be no need to rush Fred back.

There's a real issue with the balance of the side that they'll have to address - I'm sure they'd rather put that off as long as possible.

From what all the press boys have been saying his return is a dead cert.

Can we really afford to have Flintoff bat 6 - I know Colly has contributed jack sh!t this year but he's more likely to dig out a score. Freds got lbw 1st ball written all over him.

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere as to a Prior/Fred double recall

a 6,7,8 of Prior,Fred,Broad looks good. Though we would have a wickie who can't catch a cold again... and it would be tough on Ambrose.

I think that's the only way they can seriously do it. I'm a fan of Ambrose - he's a good player, good keeper - but I can't see him averaging more than 30 in Test cricket. If Flintoff comes back as a fifth bowler, then we're short of a genuine number six batsman.

Prior's good enough for that job, I think.

Like you say, it'll be tough on Ambrose - and tough on Sidebottom, who has just started to get used to his edges being caught - but there's no way Broad's going to get dropped after his 76. His batting's coming along nicely - he's a better number 8 already than Giles ever was. And obviously a better bowler (although he was a mixed bag again today).

Trouble is, England have finally got a spinner who they can throw the ball two and say "give us 25 overs today". Giles was very much a part-time/last throw of the dice member of the "dream team". It was the four seamers who did all the bowling. And even then, one was usually massively under-used.

A five man attack - with Monty sucking up a quarter of the day's overs - is probably going to be one bowler too much.

But is Flintoff fit enough to bowl in a four man attack?

Ah, so many issues...

Dello wrote:That's stumps. England ten wickets away from victory, with two days to go.

Well played England. It's amazing how two teams can make the same wicket look so different.

The Saffies bowled short rubbish for a day then over-corrected and bowled half volleys for two-thirds of the next day. Then Broad, SiBo, and even Jimmy FFS (1-36 off 21 ) bowled a tight line and length to choke the Yarps into submission to allow Montay to administer the ultimate strangling rites on the Saffie first innings.

And did the Sook edge the one off the last ball of the day from the Monster? I've only seen it once - the fieldmen around the bat seemed convinced.

Dello wrote:

Ah, so many issues...

Aye.

And as you say, they'll probably make their minds up taking the result of this game into consideration...

JKLever wrote:

Dello wrote:

Ah, so many issues...

Aye.

And as you say, they'll probably make their minds up taking the result of this game into consideration...

Reckon you should recall Prior. I still can't see why they are picking Ambrose.

skully wrote:
And did the Sook edge the one off the last ball of the day from the Monster? I've only seen it once - the fieldmen around the bat seemed convinced.

Nah, came straight off the pad. Off Pietersen, who was opening the bowling.

Sooky would've probably killed himself if he'd gotten out to KP. Was quite funny, actually...

PearlJ wrote: I still can't see why they are picking Ambrose.

In the last Test he scored 67 - his third 50+ contribution in his first six Test matches.

That's why.

And all of Ambrose's good scores have come when England have been under the pump.

I think he might be lacking a little bit of ability with the bat, however. He's clearly got guts. Just not sure he's quite good enough.

Henry wrote:And all of Ambrose's good scores have come when England have been under the pump.

I think he might be lack a little bit of ability with the bat, however. He's clearly got guts. Just not sure he's quite good enough.

Done a solid job for his first six and a bit Tests, though. Which is what the side were crying out for after Iron Mitts Sussex.

Dello wrote:

skully wrote:
And did the Sook edge the one off the last ball of the day from the Monster? I've only seen it once - the fieldmen around the bat seemed convinced.

Nah, came straight off the pad. Off Pietersen, who was opening the bowling.

Sooky would've probably killed himself if he'd gotten out to KP. Was quite funny, actually...

Off KP!! That would have been hella funny. KP could've dined out on it for the next decade and made sure Smith never sledged him again, either in person or in the media!!

Thanks JD.

I agree it would be hard lines if Collingwood was dropped to accommodate Freddie at Headingley especially as he had a dodgy decision yesterday. Besides, PC is part of the top table as not only is he ODI captain (despite his current suspension) but de facto Test vc as he proved by taking over the side today when MPV went for a toilet break. It's usually one of the PBIs that gets dropped to make way for a returning star player not someone in the officers' mess.

So, if Collingwood were to be dropped, Strauss or Freddie (probably Strauss) would have to take over as vc. It seems more likely, in view of a probable innings victory even possibly tomorrow, that the run of the present side will be stretched to 7 and that Freddie may have to wait for Edgbaston or The Oval, or even possibly the Indian tour before getting back.

It would be more rational to bring him back for the one-dayers especially while Collingwood is still banned.

I guess it might depend on whether there is a result this time.

Or rather, whether the England attack looks to be forcing for a win, even if weather intervenes.

Like AD, I am not sure I would bring back Fred yet (mad as that may sound). However, if the England bowling looks a bit too tame or wild the second time around, it may speed the issue.

Allan D and Skully:

Have a go at my Ashes '81 quiz. No cheating though!

I'm not sure they're all that concerned about dropping Collingwood because he's the unofficial vice captain now that Strauss has well and truly re-cemented his spot in the side.