Freedom of speech.

eowyn wrote:

We have BNP councillors in Kirklees, read this http://www.thepressnewspaper.co.uk/TheForum.asp letters page and the Ed Lines too to get an idea of what they can use when some people feel ignored. I get the feeling sometimes some people on here post from ivory towers......

taipan wrote:I didn't have any problem with the Famous Five

tac wrote:

taipan wrote:I didn't have any problem with the Famous Five

I still preferred Fanny, Dick and Moonface . . .

The uprising against facism: Students storm Oxford Union debate

The principle that everyone is entitled to their say, however obnoxious their opinions might be, was put to the test at the Oxford Union last night as hundreds of protesters gathered to voice their disapproval of the two men from the extreme right whom the illustrious debating chamber had invited there to speak.

One of the guests, the BNP leader Nick Griffin, heads an organisation that wants to see millions of people deported from the UK because they do not regard them as truly British.

He was due to share a platform with the historian David Irving, who has courted notoriety for decades by claiming that Hitler did not give the order to commit genocide, that there were no gas chambers and that six million Jews were not killed by the Nazis.

Scuffles broke out as anti-fascist groups yelled "Shame on you" at members filing into the union building, and the police shut the gates with the chamber only half full. While a handful of students crushed against the main gate to create a diversion, 30 others scaled the wall and barged past the tight security, occupying the area around the debating table until they were persuaded to leave.

"I hope we're not giving Griffin further publicity by doing this," said Peter Simpson, a student at Essex University who stormed the chamber, " but history has shown that you need to draw the line with fascists. I think a lot of people are here because they know what happened in the Second World War and they don't want it to happen again."

Dr Evan Harris, the Liberal Democrat MP due to join the debate, criticised Thames Valley Police for "failing to put a cordon around the Union" , allowing the protestors to barge through.

"The failure of the police is outrageous," he said as he told students in the chamber of plans to split the speakers after the university authorities decided it was too dangerous to walk Mr Griffin and Mr Irving across the quadrangle to the debating hall.

"The police have failed to provide for the safety of this event; failed to provide for the safety of this going ahead as planned.

"I'm very disappointed. The police imply that they don't have enough resources to move people away from the perimeter or that it is not their job. "

In order to get the debate under way, the speakers were split into two groups, with Mr Irving, jailed last year in Austria after pleading guilty to Holocaust denial, speaking in the main chamber, and Mr Griffin, convicted of incitement to racial hatred over material denying the Holocaust in 1998, in a cramped room in the main university building.

Warned to expect a maelstrom of abuse, they had avoided the main demonstration by arriving in separate black cabs, 10 minutes apart and 90 minutes early. The debate – on how far the freedom of speech should extend – finally started more than an hour late at 10pm.

Mr Irving defended accusations that his publications and speeces denied the existence of the Holocaust. "I still refuse to be bowed. I am not going to write what they want me to write. I'm going to write what I find in the archives," he said.

Across the yard, Mr Griffin went head-to-head with two student debaters. " The majority of racist attacks are on white people by members of ethnic minority communities," he said. "Those people outside are a mob and they could kill. Had they grown up in Nazi Germany they would have made splendid Nazis.

"Any restriction on free speech is dangerous. You start by saying people should not speak and you end up with burning people at the stake. Free speech is an absolute, it is universal."

Mr Irving, reported to have left at 10.45pm to a chorus of jeers from waiting demonstrators, said that disagreeing with some elements of the " whole package" did not make him a Holocaust denier. He had been invited to speak at the Oxford Union seven times, he said, but security fears had put paid to any chance of appearing. Speaking at the Union was something he cherished, he added, saying that the most important thing that any student listening to him could do was to think for themselves.

The president of the Oxford Union, Luke Tryl, was unconvinced. "I think David Irving came out of that looking pathetic," he said "I said in my introduction that I found his view repugnant and abhorrent because I wanted that on record."

Outside, some protesters chanted "Kill Tryl", to which the Union president said: "I don't think they do their cause any favours by inciting violence. That is my only regret."

Last night's meeting breached an unwritten agreement observed for years by the mainstream political parties – not to give the far right a public platform. Instead, it fell back on a much older principle, summed up in a maxim attributed to the French philosopher Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Mr Tryl, who has been under intense pressure to cancel the event, defended the decision to go ahead. He said: "David Irving and Nick Griffin have awful and abhorrent views but the best way to defeat those views is through debate.

"I remain committed to the principle that free speech has to prevail. I really worry about how the far right has been able to portray themselves as free-speech martyrs and I hope that this sort of debate will help dispel that myth – to show that the liberal mainstream are prepared to take them on and beat them in debate."

A minority of the students gathered outside the building agreed with Mr Tryl. Kudzh Ranga, a black law graduate living in the city, said he supported the right of Mr Griffin and Mr Irving to speak. "Though I don't agree with [Mr Irving's] stance on racism and the Holocaust I think it is only proper to let him come and address the general public," he said.

But most students and protesters in the street vehemently disagreed. They included Jean Kaigamba, a survivor of the Rwandan genocide. He said: " I'm flabbergasted that people who claim to be intellectuals invite extremists in the name of free speech to give them a platform and let them air their perverted view."

David Green, a former committee member of the Oxford Union, said he had resigned from the organisation in protest. "What the union is doing today is extremely irresponsible – namely giving prominence to Holocaust deniers, people who are completely discredited," he said.

Wrap it up, tac. No-one cares how tiny your penis is.

Dello wrote:How did I know you wouldn't repond to the actual post but rather use it as an excuse to continue your tedious attack on one particular forummer?

Wrap it up, tac. No-one cares how tiny your penis is.

Wrap it up, tac. No-one cares how tiny your penis is.

Merlin wrote:

Wrap it up, tac. No-one cares how tiny your penis is.

The "Big Boy" myth exploded in one short sentence!
Ange will be disappointed!

tac wrote:

Dello wrote:How did I know you wouldn't repond to the actual post but rather use it as an excuse to continue your tedious attack on one particular forummer?

Wrap it up, tac. No-one cares how tiny your penis is.

Phurt.

How should I respond? Post something cut from another news site? How is asking for an actual comment from the poster an attack?

Dello wrote: Get into the spirit or go somewhere else.

Protests disrupt Oxford forum
By MATT DUNHAM - Associated Press Writer

Demonstrators disrupted a forum at the venerable Oxford Union debating society Monday night but failed to stop an appearance by a far-right politician and a historian who denies the Holocaust.

Historian David Irving and British National Party leader Nick Griffin had been invited to the Oxford Union to debate free speech. But while the pair made it in to the building - bundled into the hall hours before the debate was to begin - nearly half of all ticket holding students were kept out by hundreds of protesters chanting slogans and yelling "shame on you."

Just minutes before the debate was to begin, about 20 demonstrators ran through the security cordon around the Union, scuffled with BNP activists and staged a sit-down protest in the hall.

The protesters were eventually persuaded to leave, and the debate went ahead more than an hour late with the speakers split into two groups for safety.

Liberal Democrat lawmaker Evan Harris, who spoke at the forum, complained that police had let the students storm the building.

James Thomson, 20, one of those who broke into the Union, said at least one protester was injured after being punched in the head.

"I was there proving my point that I'm a history student, and that David Irving is as much of an offense to history as to Jewish people," Thomson said.

Irving served 13 months in prison in Austria after his 2006 conviction on charges stemming from 1989 speeches in which he was accused of denying the Nazis exterminated 6 million Jews. He arrived at the forum carrying a ball and chain.

The Oxford Union debating society, while independent of Oxford University, is composed mainly of university students. Created in the 19th century, the prestigious debating hall has hosted a diverse group including Malcolm X, Richard Nixon, Charlton Heston and O.J. Simpson. Its Web site proudly touts its history "at the cutting edge of controversy."

Several student groups, including the Oxford Student Union and the university's Jewish and Muslim societies, had teamed up with activist group Unite Against Fascism to organize the protest.

"It's our way of showing that we all stand together ... opposed to racism, opposed to hate," said Steven Altmann Richer, the co-president of the Oxford University Jewish Society. "Obviously we think the issue of free speech is very important, but it's very irresponsible to use the Union's prestigious platform to lend legitimacy to the views of people like Nick Griffin and David Irving."

Union members voted Friday to allow the men to speak, despite calls to revoke the invitations. The union's president, Luke Tryl, has said he invited the men to talk about the limits of free speech, not to expound on their views.

"The reason the Oxford Union was founded 184 years ago was to promote and defend freedom of speech. This is what this debate is about," Tryl told Sky News on Sunday. "It is about an opportunity to challenge David Irving and Nick Griffin."

Irving has refused to use the term Holocaust, calling it a concept that "became cleverly marketed."

Griffin runs a party that campaigns on a fiercely anti-immigration and anti-Muslim platform.

Conservative lawmaker Julian Lewis, who addressed the Union last week in a debate on terrorism, said the students should be ashamed of themselves. In a letter to the Union's officers and standing committee, Lewis said he was resigning his life membership "with great sadness."

"Nothing which happens in Monday's debate can possibly offset the boost you are giving to a couple of scoundrels who can put up with anything except being ignored," he wrote.

Last week, several lawmakers, including British Defense Secretary Des Browne, canceled speaking engagements at the Union because they said they found it inappropriate to speak in the same place.

tac wrote:

Dello wrote: Get into the spirit or go somewhere else.

How's this . . .

Protests disrupt Oxford forum
By MATT DUNHAM - Associated Press Writer

Demonstrators disrupted a forum at the venerable Oxford Union debating society Monday night but failed to stop an appearance by a far-right politician and a historian who denies the Holocaust.

Historian David Irving and British National Party leader Nick Griffin had been invited to the Oxford Union to debate free speech. But while the pair made it in to the building - bundled into the hall hours before the debate was to begin - nearly half of all ticket holding students were kept out by hundreds of protesters chanting slogans and yelling "shame on you."

Just minutes before the debate was to begin, about 20 demonstrators ran through the security cordon around the Union, scuffled with BNP activists and staged a sit-down protest in the hall.

The protesters were eventually persuaded to leave, and the debate went ahead more than an hour late with the speakers split into two groups for safety.

Liberal Democrat lawmaker Evan Harris, who spoke at the forum, complained that police had let the students storm the building.

James Thomson, 20, one of those who broke into the Union, said at least one protester was injured after being punched in the head.

"I was there proving my point that I'm a history student, and that David Irving is as much of an offense to history as to Jewish people," Thomson said.

Irving served 13 months in prison in Austria after his 2006 conviction on charges stemming from 1989 speeches in which he was accused of denying the Nazis exterminated 6 million Jews. He arrived at the forum carrying a ball and chain.

The Oxford Union debating society, while independent of Oxford University, is composed mainly of university students. Created in the 19th century, the prestigious debating hall has hosted a diverse group including Malcolm X, Richard Nixon, Charlton Heston and O.J. Simpson. Its Web site proudly touts its history "at the cutting edge of controversy."

Several student groups, including the Oxford Student Union and the university's Jewish and Muslim societies, had teamed up with activist group Unite Against Fascism to organize the protest.

"It's our way of showing that we all stand together ... opposed to racism, opposed to hate," said Steven Altmann Richer, the co-president of the Oxford University Jewish Society. "Obviously we think the issue of free speech is very important, but it's very irresponsible to use the Union's prestigious platform to lend legitimacy to the views of people like Nick Griffin and David Irving."

Union members voted Friday to allow the men to speak, despite calls to revoke the invitations. The union's president, Luke Tryl, has said he invited the men to talk about the limits of free speech, not to expound on their views.

"The reason the Oxford Union was founded 184 years ago was to promote and defend freedom of speech. This is what this debate is about," Tryl told Sky News on Sunday. "It is about an opportunity to challenge David Irving and Nick Griffin."

Irving has refused to use the term Holocaust, calling it a concept that "became cleverly marketed."

Griffin runs a party that campaigns on a fiercely anti-immigration and anti-Muslim platform.

Conservative lawmaker Julian Lewis, who addressed the Union last week in a debate on terrorism, said the students should be ashamed of themselves. In a letter to the Union's officers and standing committee, Lewis said he was resigning his life membership "with great sadness."

"Nothing which happens in Monday's debate can possibly offset the boost you are giving to a couple of scoundrels who can put up with anything except being ignored," he wrote.

Last week, several lawmakers, including British Defense Secretary Des Browne, canceled speaking engagements at the Union because they said they found it inappropriate to speak in the same place.

Basil wrote:Not with the majority Labour have got. My money (if I had any!) would be on May/June 2010. I reckon Brown will go the distance.

JKLever wrote:

Basil wrote:Not with the majority Labour have got. My money (if I had any!) would be on May/June 2010. I reckon Brown will go the distance.

And if I were a betting man id say he'll probably win it too.

Merlin wrote:Doesn't detract from the fact that anything sleazy or underhanded or just plain criminal they have done these past years knocks anything those "bad" Tories did into a cocked hat.
The Tories now appear mere amateurs when compared to the criminals currently ruining ... ooops, Freudian slip ... running the country.

But I'd have to congratulate them on their unique scam of taking money from a recluse millionaire Labour supporter who channelled the £400K VIA TORY VOTERS' bank accounts - without them even knowing. FFS that's sheer genius !!

... and no one bar the kamikaze Secretary of the party knew about it !!!!!
Yeah right ...

Basil wrote:It is said that whichever party is trusted more on the economy wins an election. I'm beginning to wonder if recent events might induce a shift in opinion.

Suppose one of the main parties was to propose major constituitonal change in its manifesto - PR, elected H of L and (most importantly) a robust legal framework for the funding of political parties