Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

by Lindsay no.2 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 20:59

We're often told by TV commentators that one of the key reasons for the rapid decline of WI cricket is down to their top athletes having been lured to the US to play college basketball/football/baseball and then subsequently going onto the riches of those respective professional leagues. That statement in the abstract makes sense, people will quite rightly look to follow the path to where they can achieve economic freedom/stability generally speaking - but no-one ever really backs it up with any evidence. Or, to be more accurate, I have never come across it.

Now this is obviously not a thorough piece of work but I just did a quick google search on 'West Indians in the NBA' and went onto a wikipedia page which suggests that a mere handful of professional players in that league are Caribbean born. 6 from Jamaica, 1 from Trinidad and other low single digit scores from various Caribbean islands (none of which one would historically expect to see many/any international cricketers from).

So, if this supposed widespread 'talent drain' is only leading to tiny numbers actually making the grade then for those guys not going on from college ball (where no money is paid) to pro leagues then why are they not coming home to become pro cricketers (after all there's big money to be had these days by becoming a contracted test player and associated 20/20 slugger for hire). And that last bit is surely relatively easy money too when compared with playing in the NBA - the exertion of a 20/20 game and season is quite intense but is not really a long old grind.

It just potentially sounds like a cop-out to say 'Oh they're all going to the US and the dollar is too big a draw to compete with'. Additionally, professional US sports have been around for ever and paid huge money (especially compared to cricket) since the 60s (if not since their inception) so how come the talent drain never took place in say the 70s when the likes of Holding and co played for peanuts.

Does anyone on here have first hand knowledge of the WI cricket scene or a point of view based on some degree of insight that I obviously don't have? If so, I'd be really interested to hear it.

It's just that watching this test match it pains me to view such an average team, a crowd that is more English than local and players and crowd lacking any fire. I remember watching the series in the 90s that Sky first broadcast from the Caribbean and it was electric - both on and off the field. How can it have gone so wrong, so fast.

by Brass Monkey Mon 13 Apr 2015, 22:06

Difficult to say. I have felt that good players breed good players, but when it dilutes the decline is rapidly exponential. That's why there are eras. Not permanency. Apart from Australia who are always competitive. But that's because they're nasty sledgers

by beamer Mon 13 Apr 2015, 22:08

Well, the fact the kids like Yank sports doesn't mean they're necessarily going to be any good at them... we can't produce a good national football team despite the nationwide obsession with it!

It's clear the Caribbean has fallen out of love with cricket and not sure if that's reversible, but I suspect it came from complacency that they would always be the best, and lack of investment in infrastructure and youth, financial or otherwise. They took their eye off the ball and everyone else overtook them.

Crap administration and infighting has just hastened the decline. I mean, if they want to inspire the next generation to take up cricket, well what's WI cricket traditionally known for? Fearsome fast bowlers and big hitting batsmen. So where are the fast bouncy pitches? The ECB may be bumbling posh blokes with little clue what the cricketing public want, but the WICB truly couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.

by Bradman Tue 14 Apr 2015, 01:31

beamer wrote:Well, the fact the kids like Yank sports doesn't mean they're necessarily going to be any good at them... we can't produce a good national football team despite the nationwide obsession with it!

It's clear the Caribbean has fallen out of love with cricket and not sure if that's reversible, but I suspect it came from complacency that they would always be the best, and lack of investment in infrastructure and youth, financial or otherwise. They took their eye off the ball and everyone else overtook them.

Crap administration and infighting has just hastened the decline. I mean, if they want to inspire the next generation to take up cricket, well what's WI cricket traditionally known for? Fearsome fast bowlers and big hitting batsmen. So where are the fast bouncy pitches? The ECB may be bumbling posh blokes with little clue what the cricketing public want, but the WICB truly couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.

It's true the WICB is largely to blame. I was in the Caribbean a few years ago (I was trying to find a TV channel carrying the Ashes series) and the enthusiasm I saw at a local level didn't seem to much diminished from when I worked there briefly in the late eighties.

I don't think they've fallen out of love with cricket but rather fallen out of love with WI cricket. They don't necessarily see it as a way out anymore. The ICC should centrally contract WI players so they had to play certain tournaments, promote cricket via prizemoney driven tournaments and just give the board enough to spend locally.

by Henry Tue 14 Apr 2015, 01:44

They might not be able to produce another Sobers, Viv, Ambrose, or Marshall at will, but there are a few things that are in their control that they're not doing well- The attitude of their players stinks. They are lazy, and have T20 riches as their ultimate goal. If a culture of playing with pride could be developed again, they could still be competitive.

Perhaps it's beyond that. Perhaps they feel it's outdated and patronising that they are still asked to represent a region, that has been bundled together as one team, rather than their own individual countries. Maybe it will get to the point where Jamaica, Barbados, Guyana and T&T go it alone in international cricket, and the others (unfortunately) fall by the wayside or play in lower ICC cricket divisions. A proper promotion/relegation system from the very top (premier league) to say, division two of world cricket could be interesting. Three groups of eight teams. It would allow 24 countries to be involved, all with an equal chance of making it to the 'premier league' and playing with the big boys. Two promoted, and two relegated every 12 months.

Premier League-

South Africa
Australia
India
England
New Zealand
Sri Lanka
Pakistan
Bangladesh

Division 1-

Ireland
Zimbabwe
Jamaica
T&T
Barbados
Guyana
Winward Islands
Leeward Islands

Division 2-

Afghanistan
Scotland
Kenya
St Kitts & Nevis
Canada
Nepal
USA
UAE

etc....

by horace Tue 14 Apr 2015, 02:33

not a bad idea

by beamer Tue 14 Apr 2015, 08:15

The individual island nations will never have the depth to compete with even the Bangladeshes of this world, so surely the game would just fade away under that scenario.

Perhaps it's the politicians who need to get their act together and make the West Indies a "sovereign state which is a member of the UN in its own right" as they'd say on Pointless! Unite in the cause of cricket... Failing that, is there not a Caribbean version of the EU? After all, our golfers don't mind playing for Europe...

by Red Tue 14 Apr 2015, 09:51

Former greats usually deny the basketball argument when speaking about the decline in Windian cricket. They point to some of what is articulated above, i.e. dysfunctional board, inter-island rivalry and politics, apathy and inertia.

by taipan Tue 14 Apr 2015, 09:59

Red wrote:Former greats usually deny the basketball argument when speaking about the decline in Windian cricket. They point to some of what is articulated above, i.e. dysfunctional board, inter-island rivalry and politics, apathy and players being too short.

by Nath Tue 14 Apr 2015, 12:24

if they didn't have a "national team", how would WI cricket survive if it was just a domestic comp and the CPL?

by Lindsay no.2 Tue 14 Apr 2015, 16:15

Brass Monkey wrote:Difficult to say. I have felt that good players breed good players, but when it dilutes the decline is rapidly exponential. That's why there are eras. Not permanency. Apart from Australia who are always competitive. But that's because they're nasty sledgers

Eras certainly exist and there's bound to be some fluctuation. Perhaps the 70s/80s sides were the anomaly rather than the norm though and as such we should just lower our expectations and presume WI to be, by and large, an average unit.

by Lindsay no.2 Tue 14 Apr 2015, 16:27

beamer wrote:Well, the fact the kids like Yank sports doesn't mean they're necessarily going to be any good at them... we can't produce a good national football team despite the nationwide obsession with it!

It's clear the Caribbean has fallen out of love with cricket and not sure if that's reversible, but I suspect it came from complacency that they would always be the best, and lack of investment in infrastructure and youth, financial or otherwise. They took their eye off the ball and everyone else overtook them.

Crap administration and infighting has just hastened the decline. I mean, if they want to inspire the next generation to take up cricket, well what's WI cricket traditionally known for? Fearsome fast bowlers and big hitting batsmen. So where are the fast bouncy pitches? The ECB may be bumbling posh blokes with little clue what the cricketing public want, but the WICB truly couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.

I'd posit that we don't produce a world class football team simply because our players lack the intelligence that other nations appear to have. Not that this is a definitive measurement tool - but by way of justfiying that comment, many of the foreign players in our league appear to have a greeater grasp of the English language than our indigenous players. anywa, I don't want to get side-tracked into football.

The complacency argument makes a lot of sense. I guess when you've had such fearsome bowlers coming 'off the production line' for about 20 years you could be forgiven for thinking this will go on forever and just put your feet up. And then when you find out one day that's not true it then probably leads to a panicked and confused selection set-up.

Regional in-fighting and useless committees probably don't help - but surely most, if not all of us would look at our respective cricket boards and rate them very poorly so I'm not sure that's particularly unique to WI.

by Brass Monkey Tue 14 Apr 2015, 16:31

Yeah although they were competitive from the 50s, even before. There's certainly only one outstanding player since Lara retired, in Shiv. So I don't know whether that's a mindset thing or what. It's difficult to put the finger on, as I say. Certainly since T20 has 'progressed', their players have gotten rich, Test cricket is tough... they don't strive hard to improve in the longer form because they're comfortable for life, maybe they don't care what legacy they leave.

by Lindsay no.2 Tue 14 Apr 2015, 16:35

Bradman wrote:
beamer wrote:Well, the fact the kids like Yank sports doesn't mean they're necessarily going to be any good at them... we can't produce a good national football team despite the nationwide obsession with it!

It's clear the Caribbean has fallen out of love with cricket and not sure if that's reversible, but I suspect it came from complacency that they would always be the best, and lack of investment in infrastructure and youth, financial or otherwise. They took their eye off the ball and everyone else overtook them.

Crap administration and infighting has just hastened the decline. I mean, if they want to inspire the next generation to take up cricket, well what's WI cricket traditionally known for? Fearsome fast bowlers and big hitting batsmen. So where are the fast bouncy pitches? The ECB may be bumbling posh blokes with little clue what the cricketing public want, but the WICB truly couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.

It's true the WICB is largely to blame. I was in the Caribbean a few years ago (I was trying to find a TV channel carrying the Ashes series) and the enthusiasm I saw at a local level didn't seem to much diminished from when I worked there briefly in the late eighties.

I don't think they've fallen out of love with cricket but rather fallen out of love with WI cricket. They don't necessarily see it as a way out anymore. The ICC should centrally contract WI players so they had to play certain tournaments, promote cricket via prizemoney driven tournaments and just give the board enough to spend locally.

Interesting stuff bradman - must've been fun to work out there in the 80s as a cricket lover.

If the locals still play the game then presumably the notional depth of talent is still available. Could it be that the various Boards are just not getting out there and talent-spotting early enough?

And given the recent phenomenon of the 20/20 gravy train wouldn't you think that youngsters would maybe now see cricket as a viable way out, or a way to financial security at least? As per my original post - if only a sprinkling of their talented young sportsmen are going onto professional US sport then today's well paid cricket may be a genuinely attractive proposition for many.

by Lindsay no.2 Tue 14 Apr 2015, 16:50

Brass Monkey wrote:Yeah although they were competitive from the 50s, even before. There's certainly only one outstanding player since Lara retired, in Shiv. So I don't know whether that's a mindset thing or what. It's difficult to put the finger on, as I say. Certainly since T20 has 'progressed', their players have gotten rich, Test cricket is tough... they don't strive hard to improve in the longer form because they're comfortable for life, maybe they don't care what legacy they leave.

The riches of T20 may be a double-edged sword.

I'd agree that it doesn't necessarily help established players such as Pollard, Russell and Gayle to switch their focus to making thier game suitable for test matches. As they can earn much, much more for much, much less effort in the coloured clothing cavalcade. But I suspect that at least 2 out of the aforementioned 3 are simply not up to it at test level anyway.

But how does the T20 effect filter down to kids level? I would have thought at the outset it should encourage young kids with sporting talent to get involved in cricket and thereby give respective Boards more chance of unearthing the next great(s). However, once in the system and getting a bit closer to senior representative cricket I suppose the kids might wise up and look to follow the Pollard route to riches rather than the Shiv route.

Re: Shiv. Yep - he is class. Remember seeing him at Lords in an MCC/Rest of the World game in the late 90s where he scored a lovely ton.

by Lindsay no.2 Tue 14 Apr 2015, 16:59

Henry wrote:They might not be able to produce another Sobers, Viv, Ambrose, or Marshall at will, but there are a few things that are in their control that they're not doing well- The attitude of their players stinks. They are lazy, and have T20 riches as their ultimate goal. If a culture of playing with pride could be developed again, they could still be competitive.

Perhaps it's beyond that. Perhaps they feel it's outdated and patronising that they are still asked to represent a region, that has been bundled together as one team, rather than their own individual countries. Maybe it will get to the point where Jamaica, Barbados, Guyana and T&T go it alone in international cricket, and the others (unfortunately) fall by the wayside or play in lower ICC cricket divisions. A proper promotion/relegation system from the very top (premier league) to say, division two of world cricket could be interesting. Three groups of eight teams. It would allow 24 countries to be involved, all with an equal chance of making it to the 'premier league' and playing with the big boys. Two promoted, and two relegated every 12 months.

Premier League-

South Africa
Australia
India
England
New Zealand
Sri Lanka
Pakistan
Bangladesh

Division 1-

Ireland
Zimbabwe
Jamaica
T&T
Barbados
Guyana
Winward Islands
Leeward Islands

Division 2-

Afghanistan
Scotland
Kenya
St Kitts & Nevis
Canada
Nepal
USA
UAE

etc....

I think your pride point is bang-on.

Those guys from 70s/80s (I don't know about before then but it probably holds up) had pride and a certain degree of anger that almost compelled them to show that WI was a force. Perhaps it was based upon showing the old colonial masters that they were not only equals - but in fact superior to us. I seem to recall from the 'Fire in Babylon' film that that seemed to be a big motivation. So, having proved to the cricketing world for over 20 years that they were awesome, perhaps that goal has been achieved and that fire lost and perhaps the restoration of pride is what they should now rally behind.

by krikri Tue 14 Apr 2015, 18:08

The WI have been mediocre, for the most part, for so long now that it's probably drained the enthusiasm from people to want to pay to watch it.

They're just going through a sustained period of poor and average players, coupled with a smaller group of better players that are paid so much more to partake in domestic T20 competitions around the world than they are to play for WI. That's not something anybody can really criticise them for, cricket is after all their job. Who wouldn't go somewhere that offers them far more money?

by Brass Monkey Tue 14 Apr 2015, 18:21

Lindsay no.2 wrote:

But how does the T20 effect filter down to kids level? I would have thought at the outset it should encourage young kids with sporting talent to get involved in cricket and thereby give respective Boards more chance of unearthing the next great(s). However, once in the system and getting a bit closer to senior representative cricket I suppose the kids might wise up and look to follow the Pollard route to riches rather than the Shiv route.

The kids watch T20 and see the players celebrate like they've won the universe when they take a decent catch, they hear the commentators scream blue murder about how it is the best thing they've ever ever EVER seen EVERRRR and they want to emulate that rather than a bit of understated skill celebrated mildly in Tests. I expect that'll happen everywhere. T20 has become so American, as has almost every society in the world, especially the likes of WI and even moreso Australia. So we'll all play on, whilst the players give platitudes to Test cricket whilst secretly hating how difficult it is

by horace Wed 15 Apr 2015, 00:36

hmmn...spot on krikri and Monkeh

It is really difficult to put the past aside - eg the 10-0 blackwash of the poms../.but we need to move on..

a starting point could be a WI player retention scheme that guarantees players can play international fixtures without losing money.

by Lindsay no.2 Wed 15 Apr 2015, 15:16

There was a good little interview between Hussain and Ambrose before the start of today's play. I liked the way he spoke, both in terms of how he sees his role as bowling coach but also with regard to how he see his role in the wider context of WI cricket and its future. With guys like Ambrose in the mix I'd like to think WI has a chance of climbing back up off the floor. He certainly gave a sense that that is the kind of mission he is on - all power to him and may he help make it come to pass.

by Brass Monkey Wed 15 Apr 2015, 16:08

Glad he's stopped playing in a band and started getting serious. I got coached by him once, he had a lot of good things to say. Plus he's speaking from the authority of being one of the best there's ever been.... even the most recalcitrant of the Windies bowlers would have to listen.

by Lindsay no.2 Wed 15 Apr 2015, 18:21

Brass Monkey wrote:Glad he's stopped playing in a band and started getting serious. I got coached by him once, he had a lot of good things to say. Plus he's speaking from the authority of being one of the best there's ever been.... even the most recalcitrant of the Windies bowlers would have to listen.

That's pretty cool to have been coached by Curtly.

The current bowlers seem to appear relatively ego-free (indeed this team, shorn of Gayle, Dwayne Bravo and Pollard appear to be less concerned with their own wondrousness) and hopefully they're willing and open to the odd piece of suggestion and advice. In his interview he intimated as much and said his role is not to re-work them technically (England take note) but to fine tune where required and to help them mentally with regard to test cricket. Now whilst none of them look like they'll ever hit his level, if they can maintain their focus and discipline then at least they'll make teams have to work hard to score.

by Brass Monkey Wed 15 Apr 2015, 18:25

Lindsay no.2 wrote:

That's pretty cool to have been coached by Curtly.

The current bowlers seem to appear relatively ego-free (indeed this team, shorn of Gayle, Dwayne Bravo and Pollard appear to be less concerned with their own wondrousness) and hopefully they're willing and open to the odd piece of suggestion and advice. In his interview he intimated as much and said his role is not to re-work them technically (England take note) but to fine tune where required and to help them mentally with regard to test cricket. Now whilst none of them look like they'll ever hit his level, if they can maintain their focus and discipline then at least they'll make teams have to work hard to score.

Yeah he was cool. Was calling me little man, even though I was the tallest there.

Actually, I agree, their three seamers are alright people by the seems of i. Brathwaite seems to have his head switched on, as does Blackwood. Maybe things aren't all bad if they work hard

by beamer Wed 15 Apr 2015, 18:26

Young Noddy must have something about him to be considered captaincy material at such an early stage in his career, when few fast bowlers ever get into that position.

by taipan Wed 15 Apr 2015, 19:02

Brass Monkey wrote:
Lindsay no.2 wrote:

That's pretty cool to have been coached by Curtly.

The current bowlers seem to appear relatively ego-free (indeed this team, shorn of Gayle, Dwayne Bravo and Pollard appear to be less concerned with their own wondrousness) and hopefully they're willing and open to the odd piece of suggestion and advice. In his interview he intimated as much and said his role is not to re-work them technically (England take note) but to fine tune where required and to help them mentally with regard to test cricket. Now whilst none of them look like they'll ever hit his level, if they can maintain their focus and discipline then at least they'll make teams have to work hard to score.

Yeah he was cool. Was calling me little man, even though I was the tallest there.

Actually, I agree, their three seamers are alright people by the seems of i. Brathwaite seems to have his head switched on, as does Blackwood. Maybe things aren't all bad if they work hard

I was fairly impressed with Brathwaite in SA a couple of months back. Looks prepared to make the bowlers work for his wicket.

by Sponsored content

Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket

Re: Decline and fall of West Indies cricket