Punter calls for peace

But you see, we go round and round in circles about this. It's not that Ponting was wrong, and most of us keep saying that. Had he confined himself to pointing that out, it wouldn't have been a problem. But you can only take the moral high ground if you have a good reputation for doing so, and he doesn't.

The very moment he invoked the spirit of the game, he left himself completely open to charges of hypocrisy, precisely because Ponting is noted for not upholding the spirit of the game when it suits him - and indeed had shown that a mere half an hour before the incident itself.

You see, it's absolutely fine for you (or me for that matter) to hold the moral high ground, because we haven't behaved badly in a Test match. He has, and has done often, as you are more than aware and acknowledge.

If Ponting had said something along the lines of "Look, I'm no angel, but this really wasn't on and I think we should make sure stuff like this doesn't happen", I'm absolutely certain he would have been applauded. But he didn't.

Hass -

My particular gripe with Ponting, despite more than admiring his prowess with the bat - is his dwelling through inference in his column inches, that Strauss "cheated" at Cardiff and again at Lord's. I repeat, Strauss is not a cheat - testament to this fact is easily verified on the county circuit and by his fellow pros ... and Hughes's willingness to accept Strauss's word on "that" catch ... no matter what the replays and slo-mo's purported to deliver - should have been good enough for Ponting NOT to drag the issue up again during the days that followed the Lord's loss, no matter that he felt gutted or otherwise.

Us Poms having our captain tainted as a cheat by an opposing captain who himself is not averse to indulging in sharp practices himself kinda sticks in the throat ... wouldn't you agree?

And HERE is where I question his Pontingfications on the "spirit of cricket" - but only as he chooses to view it.

As Shoeshine points out, had Ponting raised his eyebrows and bitched about Cardiff (not that he wouldn't have done exactly the same - no, of course not!) without invoking the "spirit of cricket", the term gamesmanship would have applied in the physio/12th scenario - but then gamesmanship is a practice ALL players, at one time or another, have displayed at international level. And anyway, is it that hard to believe that non-batting 10's and 11's do find it hard to comprehend the idiosyncracies of time versus overs in the final stages of a tense finishing Test match ? Even the Sky commentators were perplexed that, at first it was a maximum of x number of overs to be bowled and then confusingly altered to a time finish at 6.50 pm. And they're surrounded 24/7 by so called pundits chirping in their earpieces . I'm not clutching at straws, but can't Anderson and Panesar be forgiven for being confused themselves? okay bringing out a glove was stupid .. but hey, two rather ignorant lads in the middle sought clarification - twice... so why not leave it at that rather than invoking the "spirit of cricket". Picture the same scenario with Siddle and Hilfenhaus and move on!

Perhaps I should refrain from using the soap box reference with regard to Ponting and instead place him in a glass house with the legend "Prima Donna" scribed above the door.

Merlin wrote:Us Poms having our captain tainted as a cheat by an opposing captain who himself is not averse to indulging in sharp practices himself kinda sticks in the throat ... wouldn't you agree?

It is somewhat difficult to swallow, particularly when coming from from such an intelligent and fair-minded forummer as Our Mr Hassett.

If Strauss had actually been found guilty of something (other than slowing the over-rate down, for which he was fined) it would be a different matter.

Fair enough SS.

Using the "I'm no angel" line instead would have saved all of us a lot of grief.

I still think it would have been a gross under-reaction to the situation, but what can you do?

I only dipped my toe back into this circular argument specifically to question how Ponting's comments excused the behaviour of the crowd at Lord's.

I don't think the crowd was booing Ponting because he said "we came here to play by the rules and the spirit of the game". If that was the trigger then it's the lamest excuse for booing someone I've seen in an Ashes test. You may find Ponting's comments amusing and somewhat hypocritcal but that doesn't excuse the crass behaviour of the crowd.

It was a more a boiling over of their enmity towards Ponting, rather than a reaction to anything particularly bad he has done this tour.

Merlin, I must say that I haven’t seen Ponting’s column on the Lord’s test and the Hughes catch. What exactly did he say?

As for Cardiff. I don’t care whether Strauss is Ghandi’s second coming in Country Cricket, he cheated in Cardiff.

It may stick in your craw that Ponting (horror of horrors) is the man pointing the finger at Strauss, but that doesn’t change the fact that Strauss cheated in Cardiff. Had Australia been behind that little play then I'd have been ashamed. I LOVE gamesmanship - I HATE cheating. Sometimes the line can be fine. I didn't think it was the case in this situation.

As I said, I haven't read what Ponting had to say about the Lord's incident. But if he does infer that Strauss cheated in that incident then let me get back on the Ponting-hating bandwagon. Strauss thought he took a catch and appealed for it - there's nothing wrong with that. Ponting's only beef should be with the umpires, otherwise he's just getting his knickers in a twist for no good reason.

A question for you, Hass: where does the line between gamesmanship and cheating lie?

I'm asking this in honest enquiry, not trying to make a point.

OK, so the Cardiff thing was cheating, how about the consistent time wasting at Old Trafford four years ago, when Australia were in the field, to the point that umpire Bucknor pointedly showed his watch to Ponting and told them to get on with it?

What about when every time an Australian player took any kind of hit on his body on the final day he went down and took endless time for treatment, even when it was apparent he wasn't hurt. Is that gamesmanship or cheating?

I've deliberately kept this on the same kind of topic to try to get a handle on where you're coming from - and the only reason I chose Australia and Ponting is that it's my memory, nothing meant by it.

I would think the getting on Pontings back is just carry over from 2005, when he & Warne totaly abused the spirit of cricket by questioning the umpires decisions repeatedly.

So no, it doesn't wash when he brings up ' the spirit of cricket' - especially when plenty of Australians have been on record as saying they would have done the same.

As Strauss pointed out afterwards, if this English team played cricket 'ugly' like one of your journos wrote in a piece, they would have played the delaying tactics for the last hour. Prodding the pitch, pulling out as the bowlers ran up, loose shoelaces etc

FWIW, I think Ponting does have the respect of the Pom crowds as a player, but we know a hypocrite when we see one.

Hass- mate you've just got it wrong. As far as I can tell from your various posts cheating is OK but only if it's done in a subtle Aussie approved way.

The only difference between having say a few too many mid-pitch conferences between the batsmen and sending on physios and 12th men is perception. The intention and end result is exactly the same.

Eric Air Emu wrote:As far as I can tell from your various posts cheating is OK but only if it's done in a subtle Aussie approved way.

Actually, that's pretty much what Nasser Hussain said. That he had no problem with what they did, but that they way they did it was amateurish and embarrassing. Say it like it is, Nass.

Hass wrote:the fact that Strauss cheated in Cardiff.

Oh, hardly Hass. Every side slows the over rate down when they feel they have to.

Couldn't Ponting have used his slow over rate tactic to counteract Strauss' supposed "time wasting" strategy?

The thing which makes the Cardiff incident stand out as cheating rather than gamesmanship is this.

There was an extremely finite amount of time left on the clock. By running out a physio and a new glove (for the second time in one over) England hoped to halve the remaining amount of time - or if they were lucky, stop another ball being bowled at all. The minimum number of overs had been bowled in the final hour, but there was still time left on the clock.

The match had come down to a climactic last few minutes and England were trying to weasel their way out of that final contest.

In 1981 Greg Chappell could have ordered his bowlers to bowl underarm along the ground all day and it wouldn't have mattered. But he chose to do it on the last ball of the match, weaseling out of the final contest. Like Chappell, Strauss was trying to run away from the contest completely.

I've previously said that I had no problem with Graeme Swann milking his injury for all it was worth just before tea. He was hit once, sustained an injury then had the good fortune to be hit agin. There was still an entire session to play.

Having a few extra mid-pitch conferences throughout the course of the day/and or session isn't the same as sending a physio and 12th man onto the field with only a few minutes to go.

The match at Cardiff had reached a moment of high pressure. Every second in that pressure situation was vital. Every second at the start of the day was not vital. The context of the match had changed.

I'd like to mount more of a defence and take the time to answer my critics, but I'm about to switch off the computer and head up to Darwin for a holiday. I might log on at some stage during the third test if i have some down time... that's providing the internet has reached the Northern Territory yet!

Cheers.

Comparing the underarm incident to the Test in Cardiff is very OTT.


In one incident you knew it was wrong, in another it wasn't proven.

Hass wrote:The thing which makes the Cardiff incident stand out as cheating rather than gamesmanship is this.

There was an extremely finite amount of time left on the clock. By running out a physio and a new glove (for the second time in one over) England hoped to halve the remaining amount of time - or if they were lucky, stop another ball being bowled at all. The minimum number of overs had been bowled in the final hour, but there was still time left on the clock.

For exactly this reason I think they should change the rule so the last "hour" is exactly 15 overs and no more or less than that. Therefore no incentive for the batting side to waste time if they are holding out for a draw, and no incentive for the bowling side to use part-time spinners to try and get more overs in! Only other solution would be to have an "injury time board" like they have in football...

Bearing in mind that Australia got substantially more than 15 overs in, in that final hour, it kind of precludes any accusation of England time-wasting. There are many sides who'd have made damn sure only 15 were possible. And yes, Australia is one of them. England ought to have been one of them, but they clearly stuffed up.

I'm still amused at Hass's avoidance of differentiating between Gamesmanship and Cheating.
Clearly still a grey area for him with those rose-tinted Gucci's on, I suspect!

Judging from his response (or lack of with regard to the Old Trafford '05 debacle) ... he most probably concludes that -

Cardiff 2009 (England batting for the draw) was cheating.
Old Trafford 2005 (Australia batting for the draw) was gamesmanship.

Yeah right Hass ... we all get it now!
Have a good holiday mate!

Jebus, is Hass related to the Drunk.

skully wrote:Jebus, is Hass related to the Drunk.

Judging by some of the late night posting I have seen, I think a number of us are.

We're all human. Well, most of us are anyway.

Hass, top forummer that he is, is being a bit precious about Cardiff IMO, when immediately we had the opposition state they would have done the same thing, but would just be a bit more subtle about it.

JKLever wrote:Hass, top forummer that he is, is being a bit precious about Cardiff IMO, when immediately we had the opposition state they would have done the same thing, but would just be a bit more subtle about it.

That's the thing, Hass is a top forummer. But the stancepoint he has taken on this matter is quite beyond belief. To make it tantamount to Greg "it was a culmination of things" Chappell's underarm dictation is so out of this world that we may as well be talking about a rugby or football incident as a comparison...

Furthermore, I have seen teams in a similar situation do very similar things.

Ally this to the fact that we were not out an in essence looked comfortable at the crease then it further reinforces the case that Hass has temporarily lost his mind.

Brass Monkey wrote:

JKLever wrote:Hass, top forummer that he is, is being a bit precious about Cardiff IMO, when immediately we had the opposition state they would have done the same thing, but would just be a bit more subtle about it.

That's the thing, Hass is a top forummer. But the stancepoint he has taken on this matter is quite beyond belief. To make it tantamount to Greg "it was a culmination of things" Chappell's underarm dictation is so out of this world that we may as well be talking about a rugby or football incident as a comparison...

Furthermore, I have seen teams in a similar situation do very similar things.

Ally this to the fact that we were not out an in essence looked comfortable at the crease then it further reinforces the case that Hass has temporarily lost his mind.

Well he is off to Darwin for a holiday

taipan wrote:
Well he is off to Darwin for a holiday

That says to me that he still has his marbles, Darwin has less Aussies than other areas - clever bloke.

Brass Monkey wrote:

taipan wrote:
Well he is off to Darwin for a holiday

That says to me that he still has his marbles, Darwin has less Aussies than other areas - clever bloke.

Racist....

Brass Monkey wrote:

taipan wrote:
Well he is off to Darwin for a holiday

That says to me that he still has his marbles, Darwin has less Aussies than other areas - clever bloke.

Good place to go, drink beer, and enjoy some warmth during winter.