Re: The Football Thread - 09/10 (II)

[Jontyh]

But I'm not agreeing with Jay in that sense, nor do I agree it was a stud-raking tackle, Merl.
I'm saying we all have to play the roughhouse teams and they don't change their tactics from one week to the next.

[Merlin]

Fair enough Jonts ... however, my point stands - viz., bans for excessive and reckless tackles (including Shawcross's) ought to have mandatory 10 match bans attached to them, as only then will you find managers crapping themselves, especially if in the relgation zone, rather than endorse rough-house tactics as the likes of Allardyce and Pullis (to name just two) do in the EPL.

It can't be mere co-incidence that the Arse have had 3 broken legs inflicted on their players in the past 4 years ...

[Shoeshine]

Why can't it be coincidence? 3 broken legs in four years is unfortunate, but hardly what would be termed statistically significant. Of those three, one truly was a bad tackle, the others were just distressing outcomes. If all the big teams were getting players' legs broken against the likes of Stoke, then it might be, but it isn't. I've seen some truly horrendous tackles by Arsenal players over the last four years, where players have been lucky not to have their careers ended. Shawcross's tackle simply wasn't that bad, and any attempt to categorise it as such is incredibly blinkered.

As usual, people are looking at outcome, not the incident itself.

[Jontyh]

And one of the worst ever was Roy Keane's pre-meditated lunge at Alfie Haaland that did end his (Haaland's) career - so it's not just the lower table teams that are capable of horrendous tackles.

[Shoeshine]

Ah, no mate. That tackle, awful as it was, wasn't the reason Haaland's career was cut short. It was an unrelated injury that did that. But if we're looking just at the weekend, Ballack's "tackle" on Tevez was far worse than that of Shawcross, because the intent was so obvious.

[Jontyh]

He didn't play again after it though, did he? I didn't know that wasn't actually the cause, though.
One of the worse I've seen this season was actually by an Arsenal player - Gallas going over the top of the ball against Bolton, iirc - can't remember which player he nearly crippled.
Wasn't even given as a foul and Arse went on to score. Far worse than Shawcross', too.

[DJ_Smerk]

Mark Davies, Jonty.

[Shoeshine]

Indeed so. That was a truly appalling tackle, though funnily enough I don't remember Holier-Than-Thou Wenger commenting on it.

[LeFromage]

He didn't play again after it though, did he? I didn't know that wasn't actually the cause, though.

IIRC, Haaland did indeed come back from the terrible knee injury sustained in the Keane assault, only to be forced into retirement soon after by a completely unrelated injury to his other knee.

But football folklore and facts don't tend to make good bedfellows...

One of the worse (tackles) I've seen this season...

Pick any random two minute period of play in the recent Merseyside derby. It was a miracle that only one player was ruled out for the rest of the season as a consequence.

... was actually by an Arsenal player - Gallas going over the top of the ball against Bolton, iirc - can't remember which player he nearly crippled.
Wasn't even given as a foul and Arse went on to score. Far worse than Shawcross', too.

I disagree with that. Gallas stayed on his feet, didn't dive in or throw his full body weight into the challenge. I mean, he ended up treading on Davies' ankle, and should've gotten his marching orders for a bad 'un, but it was pretty tame in comparison to the plethora of reckless tackles that have been made this season. He wasn't wild or out of control. Shawcross, for example, was flying through the air, directly at his opponent. He might be a "nice lad" but that kind of disregard for an opponent's safety is the real issue at the heart of this. I'm sure he wasn't malicious, but that's not the point. He was negligent. Reckless. And in a high-speed, contact sport, that's the real crime.

If Ramsey's a keeper, diving out head-first, there's no way Shawcross takes off and follows through and smashes his boot through his skull. It never happens. (The Petr Cech incident was a freak - and somewhat accidental - occurrence.) In those situations, players seem to understand their duty of care and responsibly opt against kicking a bloke's face off in a 50-50 coming together. They bail out. So they can be conscientious on the playing field.

If they want to be.

[Shoeshine]

You've got to be kidding? The Gallas tackle was horrendous, utterly irresponsible and he could have shattered his ankle. It was absolutely nowhere near the ball, he went in over the top and to suggest that it was tame in comparison is just unreal.

[Shoeshine]

And by the way, if you want to see a truly reckless, viciously dangerous tackle involving Arsenal, this one from Thierry Henry takes the biscuit and he only got a yellow card.

[LeFromage]

I guess I have a different recollection of it. I saw it at the time - but can't say I bothered following any of the fall out and (I'm presuming) endless poring over it by Sky Sports News all day every day.

[Shoeshine]

Of course - because the outcome wasn't something as horrific as that suffered by poor Ramsey, which means people forget about it. But there are many, many worse tackles committed every week, many of them by Arsenal players - who lest we forget have a pretty dire record in terms of the number of sendings off they accrue.

[Shoeshine]

And then we have the Diaby tackle on Steinsson a little while ago. Looks awfully similar to the Eduardo one on the left, he was just lucky it didn't break his leg - oddly enough Wenger defended it:

[Merlin]

You've got to be kidding? The Gallas tackle was horrendous, utterly irresponsible and he could have shattered his ankle. It was absolutely nowhere near the ball, he went in over the top and to suggest that it was tame in comparison is just unreal.

Shoey in a "let's balance the book by citing Arsenal players " moment. FFS
Try a re-run of a tape with the Gallas challenge on it and then compare it to the Shawcross challenge.
BIG difference between coming in hrizontally with the full body weight lunge and that of attacking the ball upright - but getting your opponents ankles instead.
I'm not blinded because Gallas id an Arsenal plyer BTW ... I really don't GAF what club the player represents ... if the tackle is reckless or premenditated and is launched into horizontally with studs on show - he should be off for an extended 10 game ban/holiday.
Guaranteed that would solve the problem of "I'm really a nice guy, look at my tears, I didn't really mean it guv" crap that presently happens around the EPL.

BTW Shoey - okay so for you it may not be co-incidence (3 Arsenal players with broken legs in 4 seasons) - so ... why not enlighten us by naming another club in the EPL who have suffered a similar fate -

[Merlin]

And then we have the Diaby tackle on Steinsson a little while ago. Looks awfully similar to the Eduardo one on the left, he was just lucky it didn't break his leg - oddly enough Wenger defended it:

Diaby doesn't wear orange boots IIRC ... have you got an extension to the leg in that photo?

[LeFromage]

Bit of an outdated chestnut that one, Arsenal's supposed "dire record" of discipline - especially since Vieira left.

They are currently third in the fair play table - and the only side in the Premier League that haven't had anyone sent off this season.

Stoke, incidentally, are third from bottom, having finished rock bottom last season...

[LeFromage]

Completely misleading.

[Shoeshine]

You've got to be kidding? The Gallas tackle was horrendous, utterly irresponsible and he could have shattered his ankle. It was absolutely nowhere near the ball, he went in over the top and to suggest that it was tame in comparison is just unreal.

Shoey in a "let's balance the book by citing Arsenal players " moment. FFS
Try a re-run of a tape with the Gallas challenge on it and then compare it to the Shawcross challenge.
BIG difference between coming in hrizontally with the full body weight lunge and that of attacking the ball upright - but getting your opponents ankles instead.
I'm not blinded because Gallas id an Arsenal plyer BTW ... I really don't GAF what club the player represents ... if the tackle is reckless or premenditated and is launched into horizontally with studs on show - he should be off for an extended 10 game ban/holiday.
Guaranteed that would solve the problem of "I'm really a nice guy, look at my tears, I didn't really mean it guv" crap that presently happens around the EPL.

BTW Shoey - okay so for you it may not be co-incidence (3 Arsenal players with broken legs in 4 seasons) - so ... why not enlighten us by naming another club in the EPL who have suffered a similar fate -

I'm not justifying anything - I'm saying that Wenger's bullshit is just that. Arsenal have been unlucky, of the three challenges that resulted in broken legs, one was truly appalling and horrific, and the other two were examples of not particularly great challenges that had awful outcomes. But 3 in 4 years is simply bad luck, nothing more than that. How on earth can you claim that it is anything else, it's nonsensical.

Gallas put his full weight through on his tackle, it was a leg breaker without question. What I'm pointing out is the complete hypocrisy of claiming that it's all about people having a go at Arsenal. It isn't, it's a contact sport and these things happen. You see far, far worse tackles that don't have the slightest result - the Thierry Henry one above is a perfect case in point, because that was assault, plain and simple - a disgusting attempt to maim a player.

As for coming in with full weight behind it, that's every single sliding tackle ever made. Shawcross was unlucky, Ramsey was incredibly unlucky. But you aren't ever going to stop injuries like this in football unless you ban tackling. Occasionally, people get it wrong. The Arsenal whingeing and moaning is truly pathetic to see. Wenger wants to put his own house in order before he starts casting aspersions.

[Shoeshine]

Bit of an outdated chestnut that one, Arsenal's supposed "dire record" of discipline - especially since Vieira left.

They are currently third in the fair play table - and the only side in the Premier League that haven't had anyone sent off this season.

Stoke, incidentally, are third from bottom, having finished rock bottom last season...

And? They have had periods where their conduct has been disgraceful. And did Wenger talk about how he needed to sort that out? No, he denied point blank it was an issue and moaned at everyone else.

[LeFromage]

3rd in the fair play table, joint 8th last season, 4th the previous season.

Seems like an "issue" that's somewhat old news.

[LeFromage]

Arsenal have been unlucky, of the three challenges that resulted in broken legs, one was truly appalling and horrific, and the other two were examples of not particularly great challenges that had awful outcomes. But 3 in 4 years is simply bad luck, nothing more than that.

Do you not acknowledge any possibility that there might be some kind of correlation between being the (currently) second most-fouled team in the league, a team where opposing players and managers quite casually admit going out to play physically against "because they don't fancy it", and a spate of shocking injuries?

[Shoeshine]

3rd in the fair play table, joint 8th last season, 4th the previous season.

Seems like an "issue" that's somewhat old news.

Not the point, and not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Wenger is awfully quiet on these things when it's his team that's at fault. He's renowned for it, "I didn't see that" etc etc. He's a hypocrite of the highest order, especially when his players have made horrendous tackles in the past.

[Shoeshine]

Arsenal have been unlucky, of the three challenges that resulted in broken legs, one was truly appalling and horrific, and the other two were examples of not particularly great challenges that had awful outcomes. But 3 in 4 years is simply bad luck, nothing more than that.

Do you not acknowledge any possibility that there might be some kind of correlation between being the (currently) second most-fouled team in the league, a team where opposing players and managers quite casually admit going out to play physically against "because they don't fancy it", and a spate of shocking injuries?

First law of scientific research is that correlation doesn't equal causation.

Do you not acknowledge any possibility that Wenger is a hypocritical qunt who looks the other way when his players commit potentially career-ending assaults on others?

[Merlin]

I'm not justifying anything - I'm saying that Wenger's bullshit is just that. Arsenal have been unlucky, of the three challenges that resulted in broken legs, one was truly appalling and horrific, and the other two were examples of not particularly great challenges that had awful outcomes. But 3 in 4 years is simply bad luck, nothing more than that. How on earth can you claim that it is anything else, it's nonsensical.

Gallas put his full weight through on his tackle, it was a leg breaker without question. What I'm pointing out is the complete hypocrisy of claiming that it's all about people having a go at Arsenal. It isn't, it's a contact sport and these things happen. You see far, far worse tackles that don't have the slightest result - the Thierry Henry one above is a perfect case in point, because that was assault, plain and simple - a disgusting attempt to maim a player.

As for coming in with full weight behind it, that's every single sliding tackle ever made. Shawcross was unlucky, Ramsey was incredibly unlucky. But you aren't ever going to stop injuries like this in football unless you ban tackling. Occasionally, people get it wrong. The Arsenal whingeing and moaning is truly pathetic to see. Wenger wants to put his own house in order before he starts casting aspersions.

F F S
Let's see what I can glean from all your posts on this particular subject :
Arsenal are "incrediby" unlucky - 3 broken legs in the EPL in 4 seasons (remind me again, only one was a "real" foul) ...
Arsenal commit horrendous tackles -
Shawcross was unlucky ... (this is priceless) ...
And Ramsey incredibly unlucky (subtle difference - one plays for England next week, the other may be f**ked for life!)
Wenger is a qunt because he protests about reckless and horizontal tackling -
The EPL Fair Play league table is a crock of sh*t.

Okay ... I think I get where you're coming from.

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