All time WI XI

Like Bradman & Hobbs, yknowwoddamean!

7 down is straightforward I think:


Dujon
Marshall
Holding
Gibbs
Garner

Where is Patto?!

And how could you youngsters forget 7-1 so soon ? .....




Better compilation:

You need a Windies XV a la a rugby side to get everyone in. Greenidge and Haynes pick themselves as openers and then you need to pick 4 from Lara, Headley, Richards,Lloyd and Sobers with no room for the 3 W's, Kanhai or Kallicharran. Leaving out Lloyd means leaving out the best captain the Windies. ever had and making either Richards or Sobers captain. Both were, and are, iconic players but not great captains as both inherited strong sides from strong leaders and then witnessed a deterioration as the sides fell apart.

Of course Sobers could be used as the sole spinner who could bat at 7 but there would still only be room for three specialist bowlers assuming a regular wicketkeeper at 8 (Dujon is the obvious pick with Deryck Murray as his nearest rival although a good case, on wicketkeeping ability alone, could be made for Jackie Hendricks who not only kept to Hall and Griffith but, most brilliantly, to Gibbs). The 4-man pace attack dominates everything but which 4? Only Marshall outshines the rest. Walsh and Ambrose picked up the burden after the rest had faded which accounts for their preponderance of wickets although they were not always the matchwinners as a duet that they were when they played as part of a quartet.

Although it was done during Richards' captaincy I do not think a West Indian XI should be solely Afro-Caribbean but should include at least one member of the Asian community which means either Ramadhin, Kanhai, Kallicharran or chanderpaul, who I think would have been deemed a great player had he appeared in a stronger side but where to put him?

Ignoring most of the above the strongest XI of all-time West Indies' 'greats' I could field would be as follows:

1.C.G.Greenidge
2.D.L.Haynes
3.B.C.Lara
4. I.V.A.Richards
5.C.H.Lloyd (capt.)
6.G.S.Sobers
7.P.J.L.Dujon (wktkpr.)
8.M.D.Marshall
9.M.A.Holding
10.J.Garner
11.L.R.Gibbs

There is an undoubtedly an XI, or indeed several XIs, of players I have excluded which would be as strong, if not stronger, but, given that all the players were at the top of their form, I believe that the above side would beat most opponents more often than not, although, of course, I have no means of proving that.

8 of the 11 were from the great 80s era but I really can't see Haynes in the team. He was a solid partner of the brilliant Greenidge but you have left out some of the greatest batsmen ever to play the game to keep the G-H opening partnership together.

Also, I wouldn't have Lloyd. Worrell was a better batsman and as great a leader.

'Big Bird' destroys England during the 1979 WC Final (no sound accompanying fall of Gooch's wicket at beginning):

JGK wrote:8 of the 11 were from the great 80s era but I really can't see Haynes in the team. He was a solid partner of the brilliant Greenidge but you have left out some of the greatest batsmen ever to play the game to keep the G-H opening partnership together.

Also, I wouldn't have Lloyd. Worrell was a better batsman and as great a leader.

Agree that I've left out great players principally Headley (ave.60), the 3 Ws and Kanhai but don't agree with your point about Haynes. The batsmen I've left out were all middle-order players and couldn't replace Haynes. All the other openers of note such as Hunte, Rae or Stollmeyer simply do not match Haynes so I don't accept your point that I've excluded the ones I've mentioned to keep the G-H partnership. Just can't see any alternative.

As far as Worrell is concerned there is no doubt that as a human being and based on judgment of character Sir Frank Worrell is the finest West Indian cricketer there has ever been. Worrell is important in a political sense as the first black man to captain the West Indies team on a regular basis (Headley had captained in his farewell Test during the 1948 tour by England) who oversaw the transition of the Windies from a colonial team to a national (or trans-national) side.

However Worrell would have been the first to admit that he took over the captaincy when his powers as a batsman were going into decline and also the major players in his side - Hunte, Kanhai, Sobers, Hall and Gibbs - had all been identified and had made their appearance in the side before Worrell took over. The strongest side he faced was Richie Benaud's Australians on Worrell's inaugural tour of 1960-1 - a series which the Windies lost 2-1 with 1 tie although, like Lloyd's 5-1 defeat by Australia on his first tour there in 1975-6, it proved seminal for West Indian cricket.

Lloyd inherited a side that was a bit like India or Pakistan today, full of brilliant. mercurial individuals who could perform a brand of entertaining 'calypso cricket' perfected by Worrell on that first Australian tour which could delight the crowds both home and away but which produced inconsistent results. Lloyd was the first successor to Worrell who had not played under him and replaced 'calypso cricket' with a powerful juggernaut that overwhelmed the opposition. From the point of view of longevity, results and the fact that Lloyd could still command a place in the side as a batsman, and a great one at that, for the majority of his captaincy Lloyd has my vote over Worrell but no disrespect is meant to the great man who will always hold a place of honour in the history of the development of West Indian cricket.

Conrad Hunte was a better opening batsman than Desmond Haynes.

Many feel that in these all-time teams, Frank Worrell could be selected as Greenidge's opening partner. He once scored 191* as an opener although he didn't contribute much in his other 5 innings in that position. He often batted at #3 & was superior to Hunte, Haynes & Stollmeyer as a batsman. Plus he was a fine captain & decent support bowler.


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WideWally wrote:Conrad Hunte was a better opening batsman than Desmond Haynes.

Many feel that in these all-time teams, Frank Worrell could be selected as opener. He once scored 191* as an opener although he didn't contribute much in his other 5 innings in that position. He often batted at #3 & was superior to Hunte, Haynes & Stollmeyer as a batsman. Plus he was a fine captain & decent support bowler.


.

I see no reason why Worrell wouldn't have been successful as an opener. I don't see why we should be slavish about picking players in their regular positions. After all that's not how we pick teams now.

Look at Australia's opening pair of Katich and Watson. Both men were considered middle-order batsmen for most of their career. But circumstances dictated moving them up the order. They are now considered "openers" - but it's actually a twist of fate more than anything.

It's a simple question. Who would you rather have opening the batting for the West Indies alongside Greenidge - Conrad Hunte/Desmond Haynes or Frank Worrell.

If all these players were alive and playing in their pomp right now I'm sure the selectors would fit Worrell in... and make him captain for good measure!

The other opening partner I overlooked is of course Roy Fredericks - a must-pick for all Glamorgan supporters.and, I discovered to my surprise, with a slightly superior Test average to Haynes - 42.49 to 42.29. Mercurial but on a pacy pitch against quick bowling totally brilliant. The only problem with pairing him with Greenidge is that the two are in many ways similar, Fredericks was a precursor to Greenidge but if this West Indian XI were to play an Australian XI with an attack consisting of any combination of Macdonald, Gregory, Lindwall, Miller, Lillee and Thomson Fredericks must surely come into the reckoning.

I thought i'd posted on this thread earlier - but obviously it didn't register. To explain my reasoning for picking Ramadhin (as AD has noted in his post). There is little point in having 4 quicks and Sobers (who was a very useful left-arm quick towards the end of his career). Marshall, Holding, Ambrose and Sobers would easily be enough.

This way you could also include Ramadhin, who a bit like Mendis used to be able to bowl off breaks and leg-breaks with his loose limbed action. The pad play of the likes of Cowdrey nullified his threat for a while, but under a more liberal lbw lawa s they have now he would be deadly - and offer the side an extra dimesion on a spinners pitch.

I chose Haynes as you should really have specialists for all positions. Plus him and Greenidge were a fine partnership - shoehorning a middle order player into the side would be a gamble.

Gary 111 wrote:I thought i'd posted on this thread earlier - but obviously it didn't register. To explain my reasoning for picking Ramadhin (as AD has noted in his post). There is little point in having 4 quicks and Sobers (who was a very useful left-arm quick towards the end of his career). Marshall, Holding, Ambrose and Sobers would easily be enough.

This way you could also include Ramadhin, who a bit like Mendis used to be able to bowl off breaks and leg-breaks with his loose limbed action. The pad play of the likes of Cowdrey nullified his threat for a while, but under a more liberal lbw lawa s they have now he would be deadly - and offer the side an extra dimesion on a spinners pitch.

I chose Haynes as you should really have specialists for all positions. Plus him and Greenidge were a fine partnership - shoehorning a middle order player into the side would be a gamble.

The best West Indian leg spinner of all time? (Not that there are many to account for).

Possibly, though I think his off break was his stock ball.

Certainly better than Rawl Lewis at any rate

Rawl Lewis = Bryce McGain


Need I say more?

About Sobers' bowling - he started bowling left-arm seam-up on the 1957 tour to England when he found that his SLA wasn't very effective. He toured India in the early 60s and turned to wrist-spin because neither of the other two styles were very effective on Indian wickets.

If I remember Trevor Bailey's biography of Sobers correctly, he bowled little wrist-spin after that tour because of a shoulder injury.

My memory of Sobers in the 60s and 70s was that he mainly bowled seam-up, but that he reverted to SLA on occasion. I distinctly remember him and Intikhab getting through 27 overs in an hour in one of the ROW tests in 1970

DJ_Smerk wrote:Rawl Lewis = Bryce McGain


Need I say more?

I think the accepted nomenclature is Rawl Lewis FFS.

Cricinfo have announced their XI-

Greenidge
Hunte
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Hendriks+
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Gibbs

I assume Richards would captain the side.

Amazing that none of the Ws gets in.


Pretty freaking stong team anyway. I'd love to see Lillee, McGrath and Warne bowl to that batting line up.

I agree. The biggest surprise must be the inclusion of Jackie Hendriks who was on the 1966 tour of England over either Dujon or Murray. However experts reckon that he was the best gloveman the Windies ever had. The inclusion of Gibbs must have played a part. The only flaw is that he is batting out of position as he normally batted 9 which gives the side a fairly long tail. However considering Nos 1-6 one would expect "dnb" to be normally placed next to the names of the lower order. The omission of Lloyd and Worrell means there is no strong captain as captaincy was neither Sobers' nor Richards' forte.

It's all a bit academic really. Just a musing point.


Let's have Botham, John Snow and Glad Small on the plane for the 10-11 Ashes.

Basil wrote:About Sobers' bowling - he started bowling left-arm seam-up on the 1957 tour to England when he found that his SLA wasn't very effective. He toured India in the early 60s and turned to wrist-spin because neither of the other two styles were very effective on Indian wickets.

If I remember Trevor Bailey's biography of Sobers correctly, he bowled little wrist-spin after that tour because of a shoulder injury.

My memory of Sobers in the 60s and 70s was that he mainly bowled seam-up, but that he reverted to SLA on occasion. I distinctly remember him and Intikhab getting through 27 overs in an hour in one of the ROW tests in 1970

Sobers was initially selected as a teenage SLA against England in 1954. Until the arrival of Hall and Griffith the Windies were particularly deficient in the pace department. On the 1957 tour of England which they lost 4-0 (and would have beenn 5-0 but for the weather) the attack was of Bangladesh proportions with Frank Worrell opening the bowling.

However by the time of England's visit to the Caribbean in 1960 not only did the West Indies have Hall and Griffith opening the bowling but they also had Chester Watson and Sobers bowling a lively fast-medium. Ray Illingworth always claims it was the first 4-man pace attack long before Clive Lloyd thought up the idea (although it did not prevent England winning the series 2-0)

Sobers was a frequent visitor to England in the 1960s until his registration for Notts in 1968, coming on two tours in 1963 and 1966, playing league cricket and as well as being invited to play for MCC and I think that's when he perfected swing bowling. When I first saw him in the flesh at Trent Bridge he had became a master of the technique and invariably opened the bowling although the Notts' attack when he arrived was barely above medium pace consisting of Barry Stead, an ex-Yorkshire player past his best, if he'd ever had a best, and Carl Forbes who later became more famous as the father of the first black Page 3 model.

Sobers was particularly lethal if the wicket was damp as he could get the ball to rise off a length and swing late. I remember him destroying England on an overcast morning in the opening session of the RoW series at Lord's in 1970. Having had a quick look at the scorecards when he was playing for South Australia in the early '60s he normally came on first change so I assume he bowled seam-up more often than not there too.

In the famous, or notorious, 'declaration' match at Trinidad in March 1968 Sobers had opened the bowling with Charlie Griffith (Hall presumably being injured) in the first innings although Griffith broke down with a thigh injury after only 3 overs. In England's crucial 2nd innings he again opened the bowling but with Lance Gibbs bowling off-breaks at the other end. All the other bowlers used were spinners either leg(Rodriguez & Butcher) or off (Carew). If Sobers did not bowl seam-up it would be the only instance I know of in Test cricket where the opposition faced an all-spin attack from the outset. The Windies, of course, went on to lose the match by 7 wickets.

PeterCS wrote:It's all a bit academic really. Just a musing point.


Let's have Botham, John Snow and Glad Small on the plane for the 10-11 Ashes.

What as? Players, commentators, administrators or flight attendants?

Of the middle order of Headley, Lara, RIchards, Sobers which one would be most in danger of losing their palce to one of the Ws?

richards. sobers and headley would probably be the hardest to dislodge from the team