Ponting: I'm bigger than the team and the game

If for nothing more than freeing up Ponting just to concentrate on his batting.

JGK wrote:If for nothing more than freeing up Ponting just to concentrate on his batting.

Exactly. It is hard to see how Aus can turn it around with him in charge.

Your NSP seems too petrified to do anything.

At least when we're hanging about waiting for the next Warnie we know what the old one looked like, so we could recognise the new one if he did turn up in Aunt Hilda's cornflakes. If there was a Mike Brearley in Australian cricket, I doubt we'd have a clue what we're looking for.

Tbh, he probably looks a lot like Shane Warne.

taipan wrote:

Fred Nerk wrote:Forward planning might see frinstance Cameron White of Victoria, who played in the A game and made runs and is a highly experienced cricketer and captain, and has played Test cricket, brought in to replace North for the Perth Test, and a more pro-active NSP would name him VC immediately and sod what Captain Lamebrain or Clarke thought about it.

Another possibility for that sort of role at the start of the season was George Bailey of Tasmania, but he has been batting like a busted arse most of the summer and he would have to show massive improvement in form to be considered,. although he has the temperament and the ability. He has yet to play any cricket for Australia.

Just remembering how Brearley turned England around in a certain Ashes series. Just think some bold step is needed.

When Brearley faced Australia's best team he lost 3-0. Though England hadn't put up the Ashes.

Far from doing nothing, the NSP is doing a lot, just pushing the wrong buttons. Batsmen can fail with impunity but we're in danger of witnessing a revolving door of bowlers with Hauritz, Johnson and the like.

Red wrote:

taipan wrote:

Fred Nerk wrote:Forward planning might see frinstance Cameron White of Victoria, who played in the A game and made runs and is a highly experienced cricketer and captain, and has played Test cricket, brought in to replace North for the Perth Test, and a more pro-active NSP would name him VC immediately and sod what Captain Lamebrain or Clarke thought about it.

Another possibility for that sort of role at the start of the season was George Bailey of Tasmania, but he has been batting like a busted arse most of the summer and he would have to show massive improvement in form to be considered,. although he has the temperament and the ability. He has yet to play any cricket for Australia.

Just remembering how Brearley turned England around in a certain Ashes series. Just think some bold step is needed.

When Brearley faced Australia's best team he lost 3-0. Though England hadn't put up the Ashes.

So the team Brearley beat wasn't Australia's best? You don't half talk some crap. You have become the Aus equivalent of Karti

taipan wrote:

Red wrote:

taipan wrote:

Fred Nerk wrote:Forward planning might see frinstance Cameron White of Victoria, who played in the A game and made runs and is a highly experienced cricketer and captain, and has played Test cricket, brought in to replace North for the Perth Test, and a more pro-active NSP would name him VC immediately and sod what Captain Lamebrain or Clarke thought about it.

Another possibility for that sort of role at the start of the season was George Bailey of Tasmania, but he has been batting like a busted arse most of the summer and he would have to show massive improvement in form to be considered,. although he has the temperament and the ability. He has yet to play any cricket for Australia.

Just remembering how Brearley turned England around in a certain Ashes series. Just think some bold step is needed.

When Brearley faced Australia's best team he lost 3-0. Though England hadn't put up the Ashes.

So the team Brearley beat wasn't Australia's best? You don't half talk some crap. You have become the Aus equivalent of Karti

I would have thought that Greg Chappell was a fairly significant player. Maybe I know nothing though.

Red wrote:

taipan wrote:

Red wrote:

taipan wrote:

Fred Nerk wrote:Forward planning might see frinstance Cameron White of Victoria, who played in the A game and made runs and is a highly experienced cricketer and captain, and has played Test cricket, brought in to replace North for the Perth Test, and a more pro-active NSP would name him VC immediately and sod what Captain Lamebrain or Clarke thought about it.

Another possibility for that sort of role at the start of the season was George Bailey of Tasmania, but he has been batting like a busted arse most of the summer and he would have to show massive improvement in form to be considered,. although he has the temperament and the ability. He has yet to play any cricket for Australia.

Just remembering how Brearley turned England around in a certain Ashes series. Just think some bold step is needed.

When Brearley faced Australia's best team he lost 3-0. Though England hadn't put up the Ashes.

So the team Brearley beat wasn't Australia's best? You don't half talk some crap. You have become the Aus equivalent of Karti

I would have thought that Greg Chappell was a fairly significant player. Maybe I know nothing though.

SO who was in that team?

Saying a series diesn't count because certain players were not there smacks od Subi logic

taipan wrote:

Red wrote:

taipan wrote:

Red wrote:

taipan wrote:

Fred Nerk wrote:Forward planning might see frinstance Cameron White of Victoria, who played in the A game and made runs and is a highly experienced cricketer and captain, and has played Test cricket, brought in to replace North for the Perth Test, and a more pro-active NSP would name him VC immediately and sod what Captain Lamebrain or Clarke thought about it.

Another possibility for that sort of role at the start of the season was George Bailey of Tasmania, but he has been batting like a busted arse most of the summer and he would have to show massive improvement in form to be considered,. although he has the temperament and the ability. He has yet to play any cricket for Australia.

Just remembering how Brearley turned England around in a certain Ashes series. Just think some bold step is needed.

When Brearley faced Australia's best team he lost 3-0. Though England hadn't put up the Ashes.

So the team Brearley beat wasn't Australia's best? You don't half talk some crap. You have become the Aus equivalent of Karti

I would have thought that Greg Chappell was a fairly significant player. Maybe I know nothing though.

SO who was in that team?

Saying a series diesn't count because certain players were not there smacks od Subi logic

Many suggest it was Greg Chappell's absence as a batsman and captain and Hughes' poor captaincy (rift with Lillee/Marsh etc) which was the catalyst for the capitulation from winning positions. Trevor Chappell played. You might know better but Greg Chappell who was absent with a neck injury might just have had better credentials.

our best late 1977 through 79

Hibbert
Cosier
Ogilvie
Moss
Wood
Darling
Dyson
Serjeant
Toohey
Hughes
Yallop
Maclean
Wright
Rixon
Yardley
Mann
Higgs
RM Hogg
Hurst
Dymock
W Clark
Gannon
Yardley


We lost 5-1 to England. There was then a Packer-Board 'reconciliation', and the 1979-80 series went 3-0 to Australia. Interestingly the series that Australia won 3-0 was influenced almost as much by players 'groomed' in 1977-79 (Hogg, Dymock, Border, Yardley, Hughes) as by the returning Packer heroes.

Post-reconciliation, the only returning pre-Packer heroes to have a truly significant positive impact on the side, in my view, were GSC, Marsh, Lillee, Thomson, and Walters; principally the first 3. Most of the other pre-Packer heroes were finished as Test players by the time the reconciliation came.

Agree with that Lardbucket. Thomson wasn't in the 1981 team either. But both he and Chappell returned in 1982/3 when Australia regained the Ashes. The only one I'd beg to differ a bit is Walters. Think his best was behind him post-Packer. He actually got regulated to the bush circuit during World Series Cricket.

I didn't say Walters' best was post-Packer; it clealrty wasn't. However, he did make some useful contributions post-Packer, through until 1981 ... unlike Chappelli, Walker, Redpath, Malone, McCosker, etc. The really big disappointments were Malone, Laird, and of course Hookes. Prior looked promising, too, pre-Packer.

"Maybe I know nothing though."

Naaa - why shoot fish in a barrel...

In the first two (and two thirds) Tests of 81, England were even more disillusioined with Botham's 'captaincy' than Australia with Hughes (and for similar reasons).. All England's leading players were struggling (David Gower lost his spot late in the series and His Geoffreyship was lucky not to join him), Enter Brearley, and against the same opposition, Botham suddenly fired, as he always did for Brearley but only sometimes did with other captains and almost never under himself. Boycott was another to behave himself a lot better for JMB than anyone else. To nitpick about which players were missing for the other mob is ludicrous - justy compare the before and afters.

Re Walters: At the time WSC started, he would have been seen as the least likely of all the Packer players to have been a Test candidate after reconciliation, even if that happened before they got off the plane after Ashes 77. The fact that he did force his way back, ahead of many younger WSC heroes that he got to watch on telly while playing International Harvester Cup games in places like Cloncurry and Oodnadatta and Morwell, was a very underrated achievement. But no, he'd not have made any difference in England in 1981.

Laird was fried by the selectors - arguably so was Malone. Laird should have gone to England in 81. Thomson maybe also should have been selected but I wonder if he'd have added much to a new ball attack that as ikt was took 80 wickets between Lillee and Alderman, especially on the plum-pudding pitches England served up that year. .

Don't disagree with any of that but the point is that Botham was shyte as captain in the way that Hughes was so it didn't necessarily take a genius to turn it around. Hughes was an accident waiting to happen so getting rid of Botham was a sound policy.

Nonetheless it doesn't change the fact that you can't make silk purses out of sow's ears. Had G.Chappell's calming influence and batting been there, things may well have been different. Brearley lost 3-0 to Chappell in 1979 and lost the captaincy to Botham which proved that however inspirational and cerebal he might have been, up against Australia's best, it wasn't enough. The fact that Chappell returned in 82/3 to captain a winning team in the Ashes is testimony to his importance.

Getting to the point about Punter, there doesn't appear to be a Brearley like figure in the wings in order to make the bold change. And we certainly can't afford another passenger i.e. someone who's picked for tactical acument but struggles to make a run - we have enough currently playing the latter role.

Regardless of how shyte Punter's captaincy is, there aint a lot of alternative options and in any case if the bowlers serve up that sort of excrement again, Brearley, Bradman, Warne, Tubby Taylor or Chappelli will not be the panacea.

I'm not saying Brearley was a great Captain because he beat a team that had Trevor Chappell, John Dyson, Michael Whitney and Ray Bright in it. I am saying that he had to do a hell of a lot of things right to man-manage his owm mob so they didn't disintegrate - he had to stop Bothaqm from throwing an Aker, or the series was gone, Trevor Chappell and co and all.

Fred Nerk wrote:"Maybe I know nothing though."

Naaa - why shoot fish in a barrel...

In the first two (and two thirds) Tests of 81, England were even more disillusioined with Botham's 'captaincy' than Australia with Hughes (and for similar reasons).. All England's leading players were struggling (David Gower lost his spot late in the series and His Geoffreyship was lucky not to join him), Enter Brearley, and against the same opposition, Botham suddenly fired, as he always did for Brearley but only sometimes did with other captains and almost never under himself. Boycott was another to behave himself a lot better for JMB than anyone else. To nitpick about which players were missing for the other mob is ludicrous - justy compare the before and afters.

Which is the point I have been trying to make. Brearley turned a disillisioned team around. Possibly a change in the Aussie captaincy might do the same. Maybe the bowlers will improve under a new leader.

To waffle on about which players were missing has nothing to do with the discussion on hand. One must remember that this probably isn't the greatest England team of all time either.

Ponting could do it ...his problem isnt LEADERSHIP ...it's TACTICS

His team will follow him without question ...He just doesn't know where he's going ...if Leslie got booted and they brought in someone who actually had a plan for Punter to follow then we might be a chance

Here's what Christian (Skully) Ryan has to say about it all-


http://blogs.espncricinfo.com/myashes/archives/2010/12/a_time_for_sparrows_feet.php



People say baggy green caps are never given away lightly. It’s a myth. Budding baggy green wearers, you hear it said, must first conjure a rainbow of runs or a thunderclap of wickets. That’s bollocks. Mark Cameron, Phil Hughes, Mitchell Starc, Usman Khawaja and Steve O’Keefe have not done enough to be considered compelling baggy green candidates. So goes the logic. The logic is bollocks built on a myth and it is holding Australia’s cricket back.


What makes a young cricketer compelling is not what a scorebook tells you but what the eyes see. One canny Australian selector, John Benaud, once described another, Lawrie Sawle, like so: “The skin at the edges of his eyes and mouth is sparrow-footed, creased in the squint of assessment, concentration…” Andrew Hilditch, David Boon and Jamie Cox crouched behind the netting at Australian team practice, that ain’t.


In Mark Cameron the eyes see a right-armer, lively pace, whose close-in angle and sideways movement gives batsmen’s techniques a tense, prolonged going-over. Phil Hughes is a left-hander whose technique has more holes than a colander but is underpinned by a kitchen sink – a kitchen sink that he throws at anything wide of off stump. Survive till the drinks break and he’s 65 not out. Cricketers like these two make good teams great. Somehow an ordinary Australian team aspiring merely to be half decent cannot find a place for them.


It makes you wonder what Australian cricket’s most influential sets of eyes – those belonging to Messrs Hilditch, Boon, Cox – are looking for. We have wondered this before. Wondering what drives Digger and Co’s thinking has become a pseudo-national pastime. It is, alas, a moot kind of wondering, for these three’s eyes are not open for dazzling by a pretty cover drive, or the perfect outswinger. Rather, they are black-digits-on-white-paper fellows. They do not ask: how? They ask: how many? Every selector asks this question. The wise ones know it is not the only question.


Some quarter of a century ago, Australia’s selectors laid the foundations for a dynasty by picking then sticking with a carefully identified handful. This handful had reasonable form, nothing more, to recommend them. But they all looked sort of game. The selection criterion was something less tangible than black digits on white paper – something more to do with personality. The selectors’ eyes saw something.


David Boon – the same David Boon, as irony would have it – won his baggy green cap on the back of two hundreds in his previous 19 first-class innings. Geoff Marsh had hit two in 17; Steve Waugh two in 16. Debutant fast bowler Merv Hughes sported a blow-your-house-down moustache but had blown no actual houses down: just a solitary five-wicket haul in five seasons. Craig McDermott, too young for moustaches, and possibly even for shaving, boasted one five-for in a couple of half seasons.


Other brief yet telling contributors were less obvious selections still. Offspinner Peter Taylor was plucked from the deepest backblocks of statistical nowheresville: Northern District Cricket Club. He had, however, nine months earlier, and seemingly unnoticed, bowled tidily on the fourth afternoon of a Sheffield Shield final while Queensland’s batsmen were busy setting up a declaration target. A selector, Greg Chappell, noticed. Chappell trusted his eyes. Chappell’s fellow selectors trusted Chappell’s eyes. Two of them had barely seen or heard of Peter Taylor. Yet pick Peter Taylor they did. Peter Taylor won Australia that Test match.


“When the need arose for a spin bowler,” Chappell explained many years later, “his was the name that came to mind. His technique was good. His temperament looked good. He just seemed a fairly cool customer.”


Those are sound reasons for picking any cricketer. And Chappell, after a couple of decades’ hiatus, is helping pick Australian cricketers once again. Here are the names of three more fairly cool-seeming customers: Cameron, Hughes and (when fit) Starc. Them and two or three others should do the trick. There’s an Ashes series to win, and not a moment to lose. And England’s attack – no Stuart Broad, an ungiving Perth surface awaiting Graeme Swann and his off-breaks – suddenly looks a little riper for a battering than it did.


People say swapping five players mid-series equates to panic. But that’s more myth-making bollocks. Hilditch and company have had their conservative, insouciant, keep-both-eyes-on-the-scorebook go. Over to you, Greg Chappell.

Quite frankly that Skully article is a load of bollocks

Katich is in the team after a mountain of runs ...and has been successful as an opener ...alternative short term captain ...but I doubt he'll ever play another Test after his achilles injury

Watson was a failure at Shield level as an opener ...he got into the team on "potential" rather than performance ...he's been successful as an opener since he replaced Highes

Hughes is a fast scoring , throw the kitchen sink at it opener ...with a huge glaring technical flaw that the poms have worked out and he refuses to work on ...Bevan Lite

Ponting ...BABSB ...WCE....if I thought he could handle being deCaptained I'd call for it to happen

Pup ....up until he deBingled he was finally showing what he should do as a Test batsman ...only long term alternative captain in the team

Paris ....possibly could have been shunted after Ashes 2009 ...wasn't ...and how sh!t would we be this series without his 3 innings ....would tell him to retire after the Gilly next year (from everything bar IPL)

North ...his run of low scores isnt totally a technical problem ...its mainly mental ...however we seem to lack anyone capable of working on the mental ...another alternative captain ...but considering how poor his batting has become hed have to be better than Brearley to get the job

Haddin ...in because he can bat ...Paine will be better long term and they should flick Haddin ASAP

Johnson ...picked on potential ....150+ Test wickets ...has performed ...has technical problems ...has mental problems ...his solution ...add more ink to his arm ...for some strange reason he looks like being back in the team for Perth ...not because hes bowling well ...but because Bollinger bowled sh!t in Adelaide ....Johnson doent even have to bowl for the Wozzies to show he no longer bowls wayward pies

Harris ...sh!t first class stats ...picked on OD doem ...pick of the bowlers in Adelaide

Bollinger Siddle and Hilfenhaus ....have all performed well as Test players without long successful FC careers

Doherty ....picked on OD form

Okeefe ...third spinner in Dubberland ...has scored runs for the dubbers and the A Team ...We want to pick a bowler on the basis he can belt a quick JAMODD fifty ?...FFS

Koaja ...get him in when Hussey retires (gets booted)

Ferguson ...another in the selectors eye ...awful FC stats ...

S Smith ...concentrate on your leggies ...we need a spinner

ShyT ...captaincy material ...boot North , pick ShyT

So which players have actually been selected by looking at scorebooks?

Klinger , Hodge , Wright , Rogers , Magoffin , D Hussey ?????

Christian Ryan nails his Dubber colours firmly to the mast. What transparent rot.

what embee said

Fred Nerk wrote:At least when we're hanging about waiting for the next Warnie we know what the old one looked like, so we could recognise the new one if he did turn up in Aunt Hilda's cornflakes. If there was a Mike Brearley in Australian cricket, I doubt we'd have a clue what we're looking for.

JGK wrote:Tbh, he probably looks a lot like Shane Warne.

Sage. Australia has, on occasion, particularly in the past 20 years, carried a captain whose performance wasn't entirely justified on form, in a winning team. We could do worse. (Yes, I know it's not going to happen, but they called up Bob Simpson from nowhere when the WSC crisis hit...)

As for the 'Brearley' discussion...

Players used by Australia in the 5-1 drubbing at the hands of Brearley's England during WSC, and how many of the six Tests they played:

GN Yallop 6
KJ Hughes 6
GM Wood 6
WM Darling 4
PM Toohey 5
B Yardley 4
AR Border 3
RM Hogg 6
JA Maclean 4
GJ Cosier 2
JD Higgs 5
AG Hurst 6
KJ Wright 2
G Dymock 3
PH Carlson 2
TJ Laughlin 1
And
AMJ Hilditch 1

Two reflections:
1 - My god there's some crap in amongst them
2 - That last bloke on the list - is he trying to take Australian cricket back to where it was when he started out?

That fellow AR Border wasn't too bad.