England v Australia, 3rd Test, Old Trafford, 1-5 August, 2013

Henry wrote:

horace wrote:monty consistently outbowled Mr Chinhead when they played together over the past year...maybe if he had freckles or had a saffies accent he would have been given a better deal from the gin soaked swill who run english cricket

Or maybe it's something to do with Swann having taken 200+ test wickets at 28?  

tosh...bung took 300

Henry wrote:

horace wrote:monty consistently outbowled Mr Chinhead when they played together over the past year...maybe if he had freckles or had a saffies accent he would have been given a better deal from the gin soaked swill who run english cricket

Or maybe it's something to do with Swann having taken 200+ test wickets at 28?  

Last 8 matches: 43 @ 21.

Brass Monkey wrote:

Henry wrote:

horace wrote:monty consistently outbowled Mr Chinhead when they played together over the past year...maybe if he had freckles or had a saffies accent he would have been given a better deal from the gin soaked swill who run english cricket

Or maybe it's something to do with Swann having taken 200+ test wickets at 28?  

Last 8 matches: 43 @ 21.

Although admittedly cheapened by coming against flimsy, T20-ised Antipodean techniques.

And the T20ised Indians, in their back yard, including a couple of very dead tracks.

true...got slaughtered by the Stannies from memory

horace wrote:true...got slaughtered by the Stannies from memory

Ah, Red's barometer......

Henry wrote:

beamer wrote:

Henry wrote:That's probably that for Onions. Constantly in squads, but seemingly never impresses them enough in the nets to be given a game. And now he's not even in the squad. He's lost a yard of pace, and at 31 is unlikely to ever get it back. Shame. He was a real handful in 2009-10.

It's puzzled me a bit why he's kept being named in squads when he was unlikely to play, they need to be looking at the next generation of seamers and other than Finn it's not clear who that is.

Yeah, there's a worrying lack of standout young quicks on the fringe. Meaker has struggled with injury, Jordan is inconsistent (and does he even want to play for England?), Topley has apparently gone backwards, Mills struggles to get a regular game at Essex, Woakes and Harris are medium paced dobbers.....It's hard to imagine who will be bowling for England in five years time.

An ageing Jimmy, a patched-up Sturat and a still scattergun Finn, probably...

huh?...so he bowled well against the stannies and the lankans...monty did a better job when given a go and was arguably the critical factor in the english win v the bannies

horace wrote:true...got slaughtered by the Stannies from memory

Who? Swann? No. Your memory is pretty damned shit. First of all, I wouldn't use a frankly piss poor Pakistani batting line-up to back your quite pathetic point up. Secondly, he took 13 wickets @ 25. So, no, he didn't get slaughtered, penis-features.

Thirdly, recognise:

Name	Matches	Wickets	Average	Economy	S/R
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	133	800	22.72	2.47	55
SK Warne (Aus)	145	708	25.41	2.65	57.4
A Kumble (India)	132	619	29.65	2.69	65.9
Harbhajan Singh (India)	101	413	32.37	2.83	68.5
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	112	360	34.42	2.59	79.6
LR Gibbs (WI)	79	309	29.09	1.98	87.7
DL Underwood (Eng)	86	297	25.83	2.1	73.6
BS Bedi (India)	67	266	28.71	2.14	80.3
Danish Kaneria (Pak)	61	261	34.79	3.07	67.8
R Benaud (Aus)	63	248	27.03	2.1	77
BS Chandrasekhar (India)	58	242	29.74	2.7	65.9
Abdul Qadir (Pak)	67	236	32.8	2.71	72.5
GP Swann (Eng)	54	235	28.14	2.89	58.2
CV Grimmett (Aus)	37	216	24.21	2.16	67.1
SCG MacGill (Aus)	44	208	29.02	3.22	54
Saqlain Mushtaq (Pak)	49	208	29.83	2.64	67.6
HMRKB Herath (SL)	47	200	29.52	2.77	63.9

These are the 17 spinners that have more than 200 Test wickets. Swann has the 4th lowest S/R and the 6th lowest average.

Brass Monkey wrote:

horace wrote:true...got slaughtered by the Stannies from memory

Who? Swann? No. Your memory is pretty damned shit. First of all, I wouldn't use a frankly piss poor Pakistani batting line-up to back your quite pathetic point up. Secondly, he took 13 wickets @ 25. So, no, he didn't get slaughtered, penis-features.

Thirdly, recognise:

Name	Matches	Wickets	Average	Economy	S/R
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	133	800	22.72	2.47	55
SK Warne (Aus)	145	708	25.41	2.65	57.4
A Kumble (India)	132	619	29.65	2.69	65.9
Harbhajan Singh (India)	101	413	32.37	2.83	68.5
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	112	360	34.42	2.59	79.6
LR Gibbs (WI)	79	309	29.09	1.98	87.7
DL Underwood (Eng)	86	297	25.83	2.1	73.6
BS Bedi (India)	67	266	28.71	2.14	80.3
Danish Kaneria (Pak)	61	261	34.79	3.07	67.8
R Benaud (Aus)	63	248	27.03	2.1	77
BS Chandrasekhar (India)	58	242	29.74	2.7	65.9
Abdul Qadir (Pak)	67	236	32.8	2.71	72.5
GP Swann (Eng)	54	235	28.14	2.89	58.2
CV Grimmett (Aus)	37	216	24.21	2.16	67.1
SCG MacGill (Aus)	44	208	29.02	3.22	54
Saqlain Mushtaq (Pak)	49	208	29.83	2.64	67.6
HMRKB Herath (SL)	47	200	29.52	2.77	63.9

These are the 17 spinners that have more than 200 Test wickets. Swann has the 4th lowest S/R and the 6th lowest average.

Ah, the backing up your position with facts argument.

It will never catch on.

MacGill has the best strike rate, given what they've had since do Aussies still think he was shit?

beamer wrote:MacGill has the best strike rate, given what they've had since do Aussies still think he was shit?

He's no Ashley Fraser Giles

If it's a quick turner, where he can bowl his natural quick pace without requiring variations, Monty is probably more effective than Swann. On any other pitch, Swanny is miles superior.

They should seriously consider playing Monty at Old Trafford, but not in a four man attack.

Brass Monkey wrote:

beamer wrote:MacGill has the best strike rate, given what they've had since do Aussies still think he was shit?

He's no Ashley Fraser Giles

No, he couldn't bat...

I still think Australian spin is the biggest squandered sporting legacy in history. Just ahead of British middle distance running a couple of decades ago perhaps... they must have had hundreds of youngsters wanting to bowl leg spin in recent times. They're not likely to uncover another Warne as he was probably a once in a century talent, but they should have been churning out bowlers of MacGill standard or better by the dozen.

yep he is trash like magoo...put 'em on at both ends

beamer wrote:
No, he couldn't bat...

I still think Australian spin is the biggest squandered sporting legacy in history. Just ahead of British middle distance running a couple of decades ago perhaps... they must have had hundreds of youngsters wanting to bowl leg spin in recent times. They're not likely to uncover another Warne as he was probably a once in a century talent, but they should have been churning out bowlers of MacGill standard or better by the dozen.

Yeah? Whatever anyone thinks, 208 @ 29 is pretty special. See how Qadir is revered, look at his stats. Leg spin is a pretty expensive business and, as is clichéd, the hardest discipline in cricket to master. I think you're trivialising MacGill's career, and the difficulty of the art.

No, I'm saying he was a pretty decent bowler, and given the flood of interest they should have been able to produce many more like him rather than the dross that passes for Australian spinners, well, slow bowlers, these days.

I loved out and out brutish pace bowling - I ended up all dobber-like - go figure.

Brass Monkey wrote:I loved out and out brutish pace bowling - I ended up all dobber-like - go figure.

hated it ....my blokes broke my fingers when I kept and the oppo enjoyed inflicting the odd facial injury...I was a compulsive and vin ordinaire hooker....loved dobber bowlers

Well, very few will have the natural talent to emulate their heroes, and many will have different talents and be led down other routes. But if ten times more kids want to try spin, you would expect a lot more really good ones to emerge, and a fair few of those to be international class.

beamer wrote:Well, very few will have the natural talent to emulate their heroes, and many will have different talents and be led down other routes. But if ten times more kids want to try spin, you would expect a lot more really good ones to emerge, and a fair few of those to be international class.

They seem to have had plenty of talented young bowlers, but spin bowling requires a brilliant temperament (it is much easier to be a fast bowler - they hunt in packs and the weakest mentally can often be carried) and also dedication through many hours of practice.

You see that in young bowlers like Smith who simply doesn't practice his bowling - he doesn't have the dedication to succeed - he admitted after he took those 3 wickets at Lords he hadn't practised his bowling in 2 weeks. What else is he supposed to be doing on tour - golf? And some of them are touting this mentally fragile individual as a future Oz captain....?

beamer wrote:Taylor, Panesar and Tremlett in the England squad - Finn and Onions left out.

All bases covered then - Tremlett if the pitch is its usual bouncy self and Monty if it looks like being a raging Bunsen - Moeen took eleven wickets in a match there last year so the square does have previous for turning. I'll still be amazed if we play both spinners though.

Gary 111 wrote:They seem to have had plenty of talented young bowlers, but spin bowling requires a brilliant temperament (it is much easier to be a fast bowler - they hunt in packs and the weakest mentally can often be carried) and also dedication through many hours of practice.

You see that in young bowlers like Smith who simply doesn't practice his bowling - he doesn't have the dedication to succeed - he admitted after he took those 3 wickets at Lords he hadn't practised his bowling in 2 weeks. What else is he supposed to be doing on tour - golf? And some of them are touting this mentally fragile individual as a future Oz captain....?

Interesting argument.  I have often wondered along the same lines.

Do all spin bowlers that are 'somewhat' successful at the international level stand out as tough, determined, cats-that-walk-alone individuals in a way that all their pace counterparts never quite manage.  Monty could be an exception to this of course, but I'd say that even he projects a 'sort of ' toughness and persistence that Bresnan, for example, never seems to manage.

In India in the recent past if I were to compare Kumble to Srinath, Zaheer Khan, etc, Bhajji to all of them, even Ashwin...that line of argument seems to hold.

furriner wrote:

Gary 111 wrote:They seem to have had plenty of talented young bowlers, but spin bowling requires a brilliant temperament (it is much easier to be a fast bowler - they hunt in packs and the weakest mentally can often be carried) and also dedication through many hours of practice.

You see that in young bowlers like Smith who simply doesn't practice his bowling - he doesn't have the dedication to succeed - he admitted after he took those 3 wickets at Lords he hadn't practised his bowling in 2 weeks. What else is he supposed to be doing on tour - golf? And some of them are touting this mentally fragile individual as a future Oz captain....?

Interesting argument.  I have often wondered along the same lines.

Do all spin bowlers that are 'somewhat' successful at the international level stand out as tough, determined, cats-that-walk-alone individuals in a way that all their pace counterparts never quite manage.  Monty could be an exception to this of course, but I'd say that even he projects a 'sort of ' toughness and persistence that Bresnan, for example, never seems to manage.

In India in the recent past if I were to compare Kumble to Srinath, Zaheer Khan, etc, Bhajji to all of them, even Ashwin...that line of argument seems to hold.

Monty seems to be more assertive these days, you can see that because he is more likely to set his own fields - and he seems to have rejected all the siren calls for him to bowl slower.

Well, I don't think Tremlett's back to where he was, England will play two spinners, or Taylor is up to much.

So there.