Your country's best - and worst - Test captains?

This has probably been up before. But anyway, not recently, I think.

Recnt discussions of the merits of Cook and Clarke and particular - but also of others - prompt me to ask the title question.


No doubt, if this thread "takes" at all, some will choose to dicuss the merits or otherwise of skippers other than from their own country. But that's another Anyway. And no bad thing.


Reflecting on England's international history, it's easy to see these as outstanding:

++:

Brearley - though virtually a non-playing captain!
Hutton - at least v. Oz
Brian Close - too little trusted by the Establishment, and no doubt a firecracker. But at county level always praised as a canny and (where appropriate) supportive (where not) no-nonsense skipper. And a look at his brief Test record as skipper suggests he might have achieved a lot more.
Stanley Jackson (of course) - all too brief, but excelled by shining example with bat and ball.

(Three Yorkies there ....)

(btw, Dougie Jardine is in a special category .......)

+:
Good to excellent until the latter stages:

Percy Chapman - until undone by the shock of Bradman, drink, the matting wickets of South Africa, and more drink (in that order). A good man, perhaps a great one, driven to drink, though always partial to it
Illingworth - some of Close's canniness and man management. Up to the WIndies in 1973.
Strauss - despite great caution, established a fine team spirit, and got results, until a) that leadership was undermined, and b) his batting split

+/ - :  Decidedly mixed results, some excellent, some flops - yes of course it depends on his team, the opposition, and other circumstances, but all the same:

JWHT Douglas (Fry thought he was pretty rubbish)
May
Cowdrey
Mike Smith
Gower (best v Aus)
Hussain (worst v Aus)

- / - - - bad to terrible (whether a shocking leader of men, or a waster of great talent, or both):

AC MacLaren - probably the worst, taking all together!
Beefy
Atherton
Fred (though extremely unlucky, I think, he fits into the same mould as Botham as leader)


Cook? Not sure yet if he fits into the second or third category, or even the deadly fourth. His span has been too short, and may remain so. Appeared to turn a big corner in India - perhaps a false dawn. Bad to dreadful in 2013. Latterly not entirely his fault.

I think Michael Vaughan was a better captain than Andrew Strauss.

Interesting.

He lingered too long, once his knee problems began keeping him out for long periods, but Vaughan's (Fletcher's) England played an enterprising, pro-active brand of cricket that's been in desperately short supply ever since, as we've trudged through the ultra-negative Strauss/Cook (Flower) era.

I suppose Pietersen would have be regarded as a terrible captain, as he managed to alienate the entire side and coaching staff within about six months, and make the ECB look a bunch of arseholes into the mix.

Nasser dragged us from the depths of sub-Snoozer crapulence. Sure, he failed against the Aussies but who didn't at that time? And Vaughan took over when his era had run out of steam a bit, reinvigorated things and took England to new heights, even if he too oversaw the start of the decline (what England captain hasn't?) Definitely the best two England captains in my memory (can only really judge on Gower onwards).

Strauss got results but the team's performances were rarely inspiring. Still clearly the next best though. Of the others, I think you're a bit unfair on Athers, he didn't have a lot to work with and stuck it out for a long time, as with his batting his career stats don't do justice to what he brought. Gooch was a mixed bag who had his moments, we at least started to be competitive again under him which we rarely were in the late 80s against anyone. Gower and Gatting on the other hand had one decent series against (a pretty weak) Australia each and sod all else during their spells as captain.

Harsh on Athers- he had nowt to work with on the field and had to form a comedy double act with Ray llingworth as opposed to a real modern cricket coaches like Flower, Fletcher, Moores and David Lloyd.

Unproven.

Athers did work with Bumble didn't he? They went to Zimbabwe and flippin' murdered them, 0-0... as I said as well though, he did see us through a pretty tough era as more or less the only constant factor.

Thinking of who I missed out - Alec Stewart is another "didn't get long enough to judge". Oversaw a ground-breaking, if rather fortunate, win over SA, but then lost predictably in Australia and carried the can for a dismal home World Cup in the days before split captaincy between formats was the norm (though I think we tried it briefly before with Adam Hollioake in JAMODIs). Stewart perhaps should have had the job before Atherton which might have helped both their careers?

Eric Air Emu wrote:Harsh on Athers- he had nowt to work with on the field and had to form a comedy double act with Ray llingworth as opposed to a real modern cricket coaches like Flower, Fletcher, Moores and David Lloyd.

Unproven.

And he did declare on Hick on 98*.

JGK wrote:

Eric Air Emu wrote:Harsh on Athers- he had nowt to work with on the field and had to form a comedy double act with Ray llingworth as opposed to a real modern cricket coaches like Flower, Fletcher, Moores and David Lloyd.

Unproven.

And he did declare on Hick on 98*.

Arguably his finest moment- absolutely right to declare, Hick was dawdling and England only fell short because of bad light in the end so they needed every last over. There was no need to pander to the dreary arbitrary numerical psychosis of batsmen -tough guy was Athers, would have been a captaincy beast with some quick bowlers, a wicket taking spinner and some batsmen.

Having to work with Bumble was yet another handicap to go alongside everything else he had to endure.

Best = Illingworth
Worst = Flintoff, his fields to Panesar in 06/07 were dross and his main tactic was to bowl his best bowler (himself) into the ground.

True about Kev (@Dello) in his effect, though perhaps too short really to count.

Or maybe that makes his fallout damage even worse.


It may be that my view of Mick's reign is a bit too affected by an increasing conviction since that he is thick as at least one short plank, and fails completely to read the game effectively (which is the killer).

But then again, I think he was massively lucky to have pretty much a team of stars at his disposal. Where he had a clear impact on performance, it was as often as not such cases as his handling of Anderson ("lost yer radar??").


Nasser - yes, I suppose he had a bit of 'pre-Border' grit about him. Meaning: his crew didn't hit great heights - and was squashed by Aus - but he made a start in forging a semblance of a team out of what had by then become a rabble....

( *Obvious joke of the day alert* : ) Maybe he should be invited back.

Gary 111 wrote:Best = Illingworth
Worst = Flintoff, his fields to Panesar in 06/07 were dross and his main tactic was to bowl his best bowler (himself) into the ground.

The other thing about Flintoff is when you watched him at press conferences, all his utterances were out of hope, not conviction. And didn't he later suggest that he was drunk for half the tour?  

Vaughan has been the best English captain I've seen in my lifetime. He had an instinct for his players, and encouraged positive, aggressive cricket.

Our worst by a country mile was Mike Denness.

Dello wrote:He lingered too long, once his knee problems began keeping him out for long periods, but Vaughan's (Fletcher's) England played an enterprising, pro-active brand of cricket that's been in desperately short supply ever since, as we've trudged through the ultra-negative Strauss/Cook (Flower) era.

I suppose Pietersen would have be regarded as a terrible captain, as he managed to alienate the entire side and coaching staff within about six months, and make the ECB look a bunch of arseholes into the mix.

TBF you don't need to have much talent to make the ECB look lke a bunch of arseholes.

Red wrote:

Gary 111 wrote:Best = Illingworth
Worst = Flintoff, his fields to Panesar in 06/07 were dross and his main tactic was to bowl his best bowler (himself) into the ground.

The other thing about Flintoff is when you watched him at press conferences, all his utterances were out of hope, not conviction. And didn't he later suggest that he was drunk for half the tour?  

Yeah, I think you'd have to class the guy who captained a 0-5 defeat in Australia during which he was sent home from practice for being too drunk to function and a couple of months later stripped of the captaincy during a terrible World Cup after almost drowning after a drunken, late-night escapade on a pedalo, a bit of a poor skipper.

PeterCS wrote:Nasser - yes, I suppose he had a bit of 'pre-Border' grit about him. Meaning: his crew didn't hit great heights - and was squashed by Aus - but he made a start in forging a semblance of a team out of what had by then become a rabble....

( *Obvious joke of the day alert* : ) Maybe he should be invited back.

We could do a lot worse than getting him in as coach...

What makes you think Nasser would make a good coach?

People have to start realising that past players don't always transition into good coaches.

Some of us thought Gooch would be a good batting coach. 4-0 puts paid to that.

Well, just someone who could motivate them and shake them out of that comfort zone they've got into really.

I'm sure there are lots of names who would fit the bill who aren't necessarily obvious established coaches - anything but another couple of years of going backwards when Giles gets the job...

It's been pointed out that the last Captain Cook to tour Australia was eventually stabbed in the back before he could make it home.

captain cook was an indian student?

beamer wrote:Well, just someone who could motivate them and shake them out of that comfort zone they've got into really.

I'm sure there are lots of names who would fit the bill who aren't necessarily obvious established coaches - anything but another couple of years of going backwards when Giles gets the job...

I struck up a conversation with a pommy guy yesterday in the crowd who was extolling the virtues of Giles.  

Well, maybe we will be proved wrong and his image as a player is leading us to prematurely judge him as a coach... but he just seems to be an establishment figure who won't rock the boat, and shows little signs of doing anything imaginative with the JAMODI team. He's had some success at county level, but so did Peter Moores who proved well out of his depth with England, and they share a fondness for picking crap players from their associated county!

Red wrote:
I struck up a conversation with a pommy guy yesterday in the crowd who was extolling the virtues of Giles.  

You must have been speaking to Giles himself.

Red wrote:

beamer wrote:Well, just someone who could motivate them and shake them out of that comfort zone they've got into really.

I'm sure there are lots of names who would fit the bill who aren't necessarily obvious established coaches - anything but another couple of years of going backwards when Giles gets the job...

I struck up a conversation with a pommy guy yesterday in the crowd who was extolling the virtues of Giles.  

How is horrie these days?