So, where is Jimmy stand in the pantheon of English seam bowlers then?

And before Taipan can say NTR - the other thread is a piece of wank - ok?

Better than Beefy, or Fred (that's Trueman by the way) or Bedser? Go on, knock yourselves out.

Statistically, he's on a par with Gough and Caddick. I think he's a tad overrated. Very fine bowler, but not as good as some say.

He's better than Botham, but well behind Trueman & Bedser.

In my time watching cricket, I think John Snow put more of the fear of God into Aus batsmen than Jimmeh does.

He's grouse as, but.

I think he could be better. I feel that too often he bowls too short (a trait that most modern English quicks seem to share once they break into the test side...Saker??) He also gets carried away with his variations. Sure, he's skilful, and he can bowl the outswinger and inswinger at will, but 95% of the time he should be bowling the pitched up outswinger just outside off stump. He tends to alternate 50-50 between the inswinger and the outswinger.

Getting back to the Steyn comparisons, one thing Steyn has that Anderson doesn't is an extra gear. Every now and then (usually when South Africa need to break a partnership) Steyn gets his "wild eyes" happening and can crank it up to 145kph+. Jimmy can't do this. Steyn is more effective on flat pitches.

Steyn is better at finishing off the tail as well.

Henry wrote:I think he could be better. I feel that too often he bowls too short (a trait that most modern English quicks seem to share once they break into the test side...Saker??) He also gets carried away with his variations.

A fair point, Trev. Pidg McGrath would work away for a few overs at that nagging off-stump line and length then whip in the away-cutter, off-cutter or in-swinger, often to great success. Jimmy seems to only have the patience of a few balls.

In about the same spot as Broad I would say. There averages and strike rates are virtually identical.

I'd have him ahead of Broad, who tends to be either brilliant or woeful. Jimmy is a bit more consistent. Broad and Morne Morkel is a good comparison. I'd have them on a par. And without looking, I'd imagine their career records are almost identical.

Sturat is more of a match winner than Morne.

All much of a muchness on the figures front.

Anderson. 29.53 58.3
Broad 29.93 58.7
Morkel. 29.90 56.7

In terms of the stats, his patchy early career counts against him quite a bit - taking out the "Anderson cycle" years leaves him with an average of around 27 which feels about right. Certainly ahead of anyone we've had since the early days of Botham, we've had a few who have shone brightly for a short period of time but not sustained it. Not in the Steyn league but if you were picking a team of the last 5 years in Test cricket he would probably be the one to share the new ball with him.

The biggest query on Anderson is probably that on flat pitches under a hot sun he seems to be much less effective and his body language can deteriorate. No doubting in the right conditions that he is as lethal as the best of the them though.

Yeah, he does struggle for a plan B when things aren't going for him, just like the England team as a whole. The inability to blow away the tail has been mentioned, and I know it was before he really came of age but I remember he once started resorting to short stuff against Chris Martin of all people when Southee was going Napeshit at the other end, which at the time I felt summed up his lack of intelligence as a bowler. He's come a long way since then of course, but it's never been his strongest suit.

Here are some strike rates and averages for English seamers with 200+ wickets:

Bedser             67.45             24.9
Trueman          49.44             21.58
Statham           63.71             24.85
Snow               59.51             26.67
Willis               53.41             25.2
Botham           56.96             28.4
Gough             51.61            28.4
Caddick           57.94            29.91
Broad              58.76            29.93
Anderson         58.38       29.84
Harmison        59.18             31.82
Hoggard          56.08            30.5
Flintoff           66.15              32.79

If I have missed anyone out, I'm happy to be corrected. A couple of things that strike me are Willis' average - quite a monumental effort to have such a good one over a career spanning 90 tests, and Flintoff being statistically the "worst" of the lot.

Looks like all of them.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=wickets;qualmax1=999;qualmin1=200;qualval1=wickets;team=1;template=results;type=bowling

Right then same players, same stats. with strike rate added to the average. Lowest = best:

Trueman                         71.02
Willis                               78.61
Gough                            80.01
Botham                          78.61
Hoggard                        86.58
Snow                             86.18
Caddick                         87.85
Anderson                      88.22
Statham                        88.56
Broad                           88.69
Harmison                     91.0
Bedser                         92.35
Flintoff                          98.94

Going on that method of calculation there are only 4 bowlers under 70,

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_strike_rate;qualmax1=999;qualmin1=200;qualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

Fredalo was used as a defensive stock bowler under Nasser, very much a fourth seamer/batsman who bowled. He came into his own as an attacking force later as he was given more responsibility (and as his batting declined), though I suppose was more of an "impact" bowler than someone who ran through a side consistently, he didn't get many 5-fors. Rarely if ever took the new ball as well.

That list also shows how underrated Hoggard was and continues to be - the least glamorous but perhaps most consistently effective member of the 2004-05 Fab Four, and cast aside far too early, could have had 350-400 wickets himself. Still, perhaps Jimmy's development as a top class bowler would have been held up had they stuck with Hoggy for another couple of years.

Henry wrote:I'd have him ahead of Broad, who tends to be either brilliant or woeful. Jimmy is a bit more consistent. Broad and Morne Morkel is a good comparison. I'd have them on a par. And without looking, I'd imagine their career records are almost identical.

So it's the Broad cycle now?

5 to go... this innings to save him an 8 month wait? If they don't keep running themselves out that is...