Ballance - beyond the average
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Big Dog
PeterCS
Merlin
tricycle
Paul Keating
beamer
LeFromage
Lindsay no.2
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
beamer wrote:I prefer 3 as a "backup opener" and 4 as your best player. Openers are increasingly becoming sacrificial lambs or glorified nightwatchmen, there's few good ones worldwide and a lot of good new ball bowlers. Most times, teams are one down for not too many, and you need a third new ball-facing specialist. At least one of them should be a counter-attacker and not a block merchant though.
Fair point.
But throughout history there's been good new ball bowlers - yet Aus have always (OK, I can't categorically state always but you know what I mean) put their best at first drop. I'm pretty certain Ponting didn't go 'I'll bat at 3 versus Bangladesh but I don't fancy that Wasim and Waqar pairing so I'll take 5 for this series'.
Bell has done 3 on numberous occasions for Eng. Was he a specialist 3 at Warks?
Root used to open for Yorks, right? So presumably he could fill the role. Using your logic he's highly likely to be in there early as one of the two openers is unlikely to last long.
So, who is 3 for you? And 4?
Lindsay no.2- Number of posts : 1267
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
I'm really struggling for replacement top three candidates, but do think Root would be best at 4 in the longer term... maybe give Bell a last chance saloon place at 3, though possibly it would just be setting him up for failure and the axe, and if Ballance stays or we bring in Bairstow/Taylor/AN Other then they can come in at 5 or 6.
I just wish we had another established opener, to ease the pressure on who comes in next. Or maybe stumble across a new Nasser or Trott from somewhere...
I just wish we had another established opener, to ease the pressure on who comes in next. Or maybe stumble across a new Nasser or Trott from somewhere...
beamer- Number of posts : 15399
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
I have always thought that your most effective batsman should be at 4 with the proviso that 3 should be technically correct. We are talking about Bradman and Ponting but for most of their careers they were behind pretty effective opening combinations.
taipan- Number of posts : 48416
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Lindsay no.2 wrote:beamer wrote:I prefer 3 as a "backup opener" and 4 as your best player. Openers are increasingly becoming sacrificial lambs or glorified nightwatchmen, there's few good ones worldwide and a lot of good new ball bowlers. Most times, teams are one down for not too many, and you need a third new ball-facing specialist. At least one of them should be a counter-attacker and not a block merchant though.
Fair point.
But throughout history there's been good new ball bowlers - yet Aus have always (OK, I can't categorically state always but you know what I mean) put their best at first drop. I'm pretty certain Ponting didn't go 'I'll bat at 3 versus Bangladesh but I don't fancy that Wasim and Waqar pairing so I'll take 5 for this series'.
Bell has done 3 on numberous occasions for Eng. Was he a specialist 3 at Warks?
Root used to open for Yorks, right? So presumably he could fill the role. Using your logic he's highly likely to be in there early as one of the two openers is unlikely to last long.
So, who is 3 for you? And 4?
Punter batted behind NLWL and MtFTB for most of his career
I'm not sure he would have liked batting at 3 quite as much if Adam Lyth was one of the openers
Copying other teams only works if you have the players to do it
How many years have England spent looking for "the next Botham" ...and apart from Flintoff in part of his career and maybe Stokes ...they really havent come close but have given some caps to a lot of cunis all rounders
embee- Number of posts : 26217
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
embee wrote:Lindsay no.2 wrote:beamer wrote:I prefer 3 as a "backup opener" and 4 as your best player. Openers are increasingly becoming sacrificial lambs or glorified nightwatchmen, there's few good ones worldwide and a lot of good new ball bowlers. Most times, teams are one down for not too many, and you need a third new ball-facing specialist. At least one of them should be a counter-attacker and not a block merchant though.
Fair point.
But throughout history there's been good new ball bowlers - yet Aus have always (OK, I can't categorically state always but you know what I mean) put their best at first drop. I'm pretty certain Ponting didn't go 'I'll bat at 3 versus Bangladesh but I don't fancy that Wasim and Waqar pairing so I'll take 5 for this series'.
Bell has done 3 on numberous occasions for Eng. Was he a specialist 3 at Warks?
Root used to open for Yorks, right? So presumably he could fill the role. Using your logic he's highly likely to be in there early as one of the two openers is unlikely to last long.
So, who is 3 for you? And 4?
Punter batted behind NLWL and MtFTB for most of his career
I'm not sure he would have liked batting at 3 quite as much if Adam Lyth was one of the openers
Copying other teams only works if you have the players to do it
How many years have England spent looking for "the next Botham" ...and apart from Flintoff in part of his career and maybe Stokes ...they really havent come close but have given some caps to a lot of cunis all rounders
That was my point. Be interesting to see what his average was when one of the openers failed.
taipan- Number of posts : 48416
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Closest I could get was his average in lost matches v other players in lost matches. Not much of a comparison but he drops twenty runs. Chappell's ave halves but he played in a higher percentage of losing tests. Might be a better filter out there.
Bradman- Number of posts : 17402
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
And let's not forget that great no 3, Tendulkar.
taipan- Number of posts : 48416
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Maybe filter on games where the first FOW was 20 or less? Can you do that?
lardbucket- Number of posts : 38121
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
lardbucket wrote:Maybe filter on games where the first FOW was 20 or less? Can you do that?
Had a quick glance at stats guru, but don't see that option.
taipan- Number of posts : 48416
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
The old 'stick another opener in at 3' option has never worked all that well, has it?
I guess it was a success in the turgid 70-71 series, where Edrich followed Boycott and Luckhurst, barring the final two matches of the series where first Luckhurst and then Boycott were out injured. It is far easier to think of failed examples of this experiment than lasting successes, though.
The great number 3s - IVA Richards and Richie Richardson, Laxman, Zaheer Abbas, Majid Khan, et al may well have opened on the odd occasion, but their natural position was 3 or 4, and they often chose to bat at 3. There were some useful South Africans in that position too as I am sure taipan will happily point out.
Who should be batting at 3? Pietersen, really, but if not Pietersen, then Bell (who should have been there before). Root should be at 4. The 'new boys' should be coming in at 5 or 6.
I guess it was a success in the turgid 70-71 series, where Edrich followed Boycott and Luckhurst, barring the final two matches of the series where first Luckhurst and then Boycott were out injured. It is far easier to think of failed examples of this experiment than lasting successes, though.
The great number 3s - IVA Richards and Richie Richardson, Laxman, Zaheer Abbas, Majid Khan, et al may well have opened on the odd occasion, but their natural position was 3 or 4, and they often chose to bat at 3. There were some useful South Africans in that position too as I am sure taipan will happily point out.
Who should be batting at 3? Pietersen, really, but if not Pietersen, then Bell (who should have been there before). Root should be at 4. The 'new boys' should be coming in at 5 or 6.
lardbucket- Number of posts : 38121
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Anyway, I think it is time for Gary Ballast to go.
lardbucket- Number of posts : 38121
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Merlin wrote:Ballance's technique is sh*t. Period.
Until and unless he sorts that across and back in crease routine out, he's going to be nailed every time.
Smiff (the squinty eyed Aus specimen) does the same movement, but watch the class difference ... his head is over the ball at the point of impact on the bat ... the difference is Smiff KNOWS what he's doing - Ballance is clueless and stuck in the same gear - reverse and left.
Dump him for the rest of the series - send him back to Yorkshire (where, by the way, he is also struggling for runs this season!) and iron out his kink.
I think LN2 scoped his centuries well in his post above - not saying they were all flukey ... but yes, they were scored against poorer oppos; when others were also piling on the runs and when the pressure was off.
The only sign of hope was his first dig in Cardiff, where, fair dues to him, he grafted (in an ugly manner, it has to be said) for his innings/match saving 60 and kept Root flowing at the other end.
That's now history.
He is a walking wicket.
GET.RID.OF.
Ah, easily fixed. It must just be a bit of Parkinson's of the right little finger, old boy, you seem to keep hitting the return key midstream, presumably accidentally. MPTP impurities from the 60's and 70's catching up with you? Anyway - I've just deleted all the inadvertent keystrokes, and your post is almost readable now!
lardbucket- Number of posts : 38121
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
lardbucket wrote:The old 'stick another opener in at 3' option has never worked all that well, has it?
I guess it was a success in the turgid 70-71 series, where Edrich followed Boycott and Luckhurst, barring the final two matches of the series where first Luckhurst and then Boycott were out injured. It is far easier to think of failed examples of this experiment than lasting successes, though.
The great number 3s - IVA Richards and Richie Richardson, Laxman, Zaheer Abbas, Majid Khan, et al may well have opened on the odd occasion, but their natural position was 3 or 4, and they often chose to bat at 3. There were some useful South Africans in that position too as I am sure taipan will happily point out.
Who should be batting at 3? Pietersen, really, but if not Pietersen, then Bell (who should have been there before). Root should be at 4. The 'new boys' should be coming in at 5 or 6.
The option of playing a no 5 at 3 hasn't worked that well either.
Viv also batted a lot at 4 and 5.
Kallis started at 3 and finished at 4. IIRC GP only batted at 4.
Last edited by taipan on Tue 21 Jul 2015, 07:17; edited 1 time in total
taipan- Number of posts : 48416
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
lardbucket wrote:The old 'stick another opener in at 3' option has never worked all that well, has it?
.
Boonie
embee- Number of posts : 26217
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Boonie started at 3, went to opener (did well too) then moved back down.
Legend.
For every Boonie there is unfortunately a Graeme Wood and a John Dyson.
Legend.
For every Boonie there is unfortunately a Graeme Wood and a John Dyson.
lardbucket- Number of posts : 38121
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Amla has moved to 4 since getting the captaincy.
taipan- Number of posts : 48416
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
lardbucket wrote:The old 'stick another opener in at 3' option has never worked all that well, has it?
....
Didn't Cook start out at 3, and get the promotion to open when Tres bowed out? Or am I imagining this?
Not sure how well it worked while he WAS at 3, but his opener Test career started well. Until the record started to stick (until he was "worked out", if you prefer - personally, I think it's more that he didn't evolve, especially neglected the drive and front-foot play generally, and hoped he could pretty much cut, pull and glance his way to big scores on all surfaces, against all bowlers.)
PeterCS- Number of posts : 43743
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
PeterCS wrote:lardbucket wrote:The old 'stick another opener in at 3' option has never worked all that well, has it?
....
Didn't Cook start out at 3, and get the promotion to open when Tres bowed out? Or am I imagining this?
Not sure how well it worked while he WAS at 3, but his opener Test career started well. Until the record started to stick (until he was "worked out", if you prefer - personally, I think it's more that he didn't evolve, especially neglected the drive and front-foot play generally, and hoped he could pretty much cut, pull and glance his way to big scores on all surfaces, against all bowlers.)
He opened on his debut in India, when Trescothick went home with illness.
Tres had one final attempt at a comeback the following summer, and Cook dropped to three for a handful of games until the Somerset Sexmachine called it quits.
Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Ah thanks. I can't remember how that particular "third opener method" went. Can you?
PeterCS- Number of posts : 43743
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Cook, Strauss and Vaughan all had decent records at 3, even if from a fairly limited number of games each. Mark Butcher didn't do too badly, had a much better average than he did opening, and second only to Trott in terms of number 3 runs for England this century.
Over-promoted middle order men, on the other hand, tend to struggle, even after promising starts (remember Bopara?)
Over-promoted middle order men, on the other hand, tend to struggle, even after promising starts (remember Bopara?)
beamer- Number of posts : 15399
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Ballance retires. Not overt, but mental health issues after being almost exclusively pinned for the Yorkshire racism debacle seems to have finished off his enjoyment of the game.
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116 - 9 - 400 - 4
lardbucket- Number of posts : 38121
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Re: Ballance - beyond the average
Over-Ballanced
Would have been interesting to see how he got on with an extended run back in the Zimmer frame… strange career for him really, and will always be one of notoriety now.
Would have been interesting to see how he got on with an extended run back in the Zimmer frame… strange career for him really, and will always be one of notoriety now.
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