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Greatest left hand bat since Sobers - AB or BCL?

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Greatest left hand bat since Sobers - AB or BCL? - Page 11 Empty Re: Greatest left hand bat since Sobers - AB or BCL?

Post by PeterCS Wed 11 Jun 2008, 15:53

When was Viv a LHB?
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Post by PeterCS Wed 11 Jun 2008, 15:54

Brass Monkey wrote:
taipan wrote:As an outsider, it is Viv for me, every time.

Viv or Barry? Wink

I love Baz as a summariser. He is always unencumbered by fairness.
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Post by peterg Wed 11 Jun 2008, 19:35

One possibly last point on Viv.

Like Greg Chappell, Lillee and a host of others, he lost many opportunities to play Tests due to WSC.

Now I haven't the energy to check his WSC stats but vague memory suggests they are very good.

From equally approximate memory, Australians lost up to 20 Tests in that time. Viv probably did not lose as many - for a start, I think he did may have played a couple v Australia against Bob Simpson.
Nonetheless, chances are that his Test stats are diminished by the loss of a couple of prime years...

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Post by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 11 Jun 2008, 20:32

Good point, peter. I think Viv was the most succesful batsman in WSC and because it came right after his annus mirabilis in '76, it was most definitely his peak.

In the first three supertests in 1977, Viv topped the batting averages, scoring 3 hundreds in 3 Tests and soring over 500 runs at a Bradmanesque average of 100.40. The remarkable fact is that he wasn't not out once in those three Tests. He ended up above batsman like GChappell and Barry Richards.

In the next three supertests in 77/78, Viv topped the batting averages again, scoring 360 runs at an average of 72, with 1 century and 3 50s, again, in just three matches.

He didn't do as well in the second year of WSC but his overall WSC record was:

13 Supertests - 1281 runs at an average of 56 with 4 centuries and 4 half centuries.
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Post by Chivalry Augustus Wed 11 Jun 2008, 21:02

A load of folk comparing batsman who they barely saw play in a discussion not even vaguely related to the thread title - Flaming Bails, eh?
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Post by JKLever Wed 11 Jun 2008, 21:18

Augustus wrote:A load of folk comparing batsman who they barely saw play in a discussion not even vaguely related to the thread title - Flaming Bails, eh?

Barely saw play?

I grew up watching Border & Viv
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Post by Chivalry Augustus Wed 11 Jun 2008, 21:21

Not talking about you, JK...Cool

I'd be interested to know how much of Viv you-know-who has seen though - the stat machine. Apart from on YouTube and ESPN.
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Post by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 11 Jun 2008, 21:28

I take it I'm "you-know-who". Nothing apart from youtube, skysports and ESPN. Don't see what difference it makes. If Leo's the age I think he is, he wouldn't have seen much of Border and Viv. Danny won't have seen that much of either either. Reading about them and seeing a lot of footage is quite handy.
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Post by Chivalry Augustus Wed 11 Jun 2008, 21:36

We've all seen a lot of footage, but it invariably leans towards the highlights rather than the lowlights, meaning either certain matches or certain innings are omitted. Looking in retrospect upon a player's career, a significant amount of which unfolded before either you or I were born, is simply incomparable to mapping that player's career over time and watching him in person at the ground and noting his brilliance. I would personally stand back and simply say that Border and Richards were top-class players, the figures back that up. But looking from without on their respective careers and trying to compare them on the basis of a few videos and a number of biased texts? I don't think so.

Statistics are a wonderful thing as your sole weapon though, I suppose - they can be twisted to any purpose. Allan Border scored runs consistently over a great period of time. He played to an older age and still kept going. I'd suggest that his achievements are greater on paper than Viv's. But I wouldn't defend that opinion to the hilt because I have no idea - I've only seen him on the Ashes highlights on ESPN.

Edit: I'm not trying to police this debate or anything, I'm just saying. Carry on by all means and forget about me.
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Post by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 11 Jun 2008, 21:42

Oh, here we go. The old "I can tell more from watching players than numerous cricketing experts writing down their opinions in "biased texts". What rot. The height of arrogance.

Whether you want to trust the opinions of writers who have probably forgotten more about cricket than you'll ever know is your lookout. I shall continue to respect them.

As for stats, they are simply records of what has happened. Statistical analysis is a vitally important tool for judging what a player did. You'd have to be an utter fool to deny it. Of course, you can't base your opinion solely on stats, which is where the "biased texts" come into it.
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Post by LeFromage Wed 11 Jun 2008, 21:48

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Oh, here we go. The old "I can tell more from watching players than numerous cricketing experts writing down their opinions in "biased texts". What rot. The height of arrogance.

Whether you want to trust the opinions of writers who have probably forgotten more about cricket than you'll ever know is your lookout. I shall continue to respect them.

As for stats, they are simply records of what has happened. Statistical analysis is a vitally important tool for judging what a player did. You'd have to be an utter fool to deny it. Of course, you can't base your opinion solely on stats, which is where the "biased texts" come into it.

It's not really your opinion though, is it? It's a reheated version of someone else's.

That's it - I'm in and I'm out of the debate. Best of luck.
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Post by Merlin Wed 11 Jun 2008, 21:50

Saw both - but only on grounds in this country.

Put simply -

Viv Richards was dramatic, devastating and had an air of pompous disregard for any type of bowling on any wicket on any day. He strut out with an arrogance and purpose, and almost from ball one was looking to score - heavily. Sometimes it came off spectacularly, other times it didn't - but you were, even then, not disappointed. He had an almost perfect and quick eye/hand coordination and struck the ball hard, some of his shots surprising even him.

Allan Border was the complete opposite. Circumspect, correct and an orthodox purist, he ground out his innings based on technique until he reached a stage when he began playing fluently and effortlessly. He was the harder of the two to prise out, and even on a bad day, would graft his way to a half decent score, making certain the innings was well placed before he started taking personal risks. Dour for most part but bloody effective nonetheless.

Hard to pick between the two ... all depended on what took your liking on the day.

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Post by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 11 Jun 2008, 21:58

Dello wrote:
Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Oh, here we go. The old "I can tell more from watching players than numerous cricketing experts writing down their opinions in "biased texts". What rot. The height of arrogance.

Whether you want to trust the opinions of writers who have probably forgotten more about cricket than you'll ever know is your lookout. I shall continue to respect them.

As for stats, they are simply records of what has happened. Statistical analysis is a vitally important tool for judging what a player did. You'd have to be an utter fool to deny it. Of course, you can't base your opinion solely on stats, which is where the "biased texts" come into it.

It's not really your opinion though, is it? It's a reheated version of someone else's.

That's it - I'm in and I'm out of the debate. Best of luck.

Well people usually interpret stats, footage and essays differently but I don't see how it makes a difference. If a top economist who knows what he's talking about tells me the country is in financial meltdown, I tend to accept that they're right. If we only trusted our own opinions on everything the world would be a very egotistical, ignorant and weird place.


Last edited by Lara Lara Laughs on Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:20; edited 1 time in total
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Post by HH_pink Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:14

Who would those who have "seen" them both (AB and Viv) play say Sachin is more like?
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Post by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:15

Laughing Laughing Laughing

Quality!
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Post by JKLever Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:16

HH_pink wrote:Who would those who have "seen" them both (AB and Viv) play say Sachin is more like?

Border.

Sachin doesn't excite me in the same way BCL does.

And by that I don't mean i'm into shaven headed black males...
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Post by PeterCS Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:16

Inzi.
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Post by Merlin Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:17

HH_pink wrote:Who would those who have "seen" them both (AB and Viv) play say Sachin is more like?

Blend of the two would be my take.
Circumspect, mixing orthodox with brilliance.
Started his innings like Border then went on later to score heavily like Richards.

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Post by PeterCS Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:19

Or Lara.
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Post by JKLever Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:19

Look, everyone knows BCL>SRT
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Post by PeterCS Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:21

But was SRW>PMT?
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Post by Merlin Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:23

JKLever wrote:Look, everyone knows BCL>SRT
Shades him in the batting .... sure.
But Tenderloin was a far better fielder and bowler.
Lara was a lazy barsteward.

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Post by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:27

Far better fielder? Lara was an all-time great slipper. Mr safe hands.
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Post by PeterCS Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:29

Aye, but where was the pipe, and the other one?
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Post by Merlin Wed 11 Jun 2008, 22:40

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Far better fielder? Lara was an all-time great slipper. Mr safe hands.
Only when he felt like it... and no he wasn't the greatest.
IMO Botham was (second slip) ... Strauss and Tresco have also taken scorchers ...
as have scores of others ... Lara was no way "an all-time great" slipper.
Tenders however, could field in any possie .. close in or deep - and was class in both.

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