Re: Has Dravid had a greater contribution to Indian cricket.....

by Gary 111 Sat 27 Aug 2011, 11:17

Henry wrote:His innings against Aus at Adelaide wasn't a one man show. Laxman scored 140 odd and they shared another huge partnership. Adelaide is also the flattest pitch probably in the World, and Aus were missing Mcgrath and Warne from their attack.

You can't denigrate that performance.

Aus were the best team in the world, he batted for nearly 14 hours, faced 616 balls and scored 302 runs including the winning runs as India won for the first time in Aus for 22 years (their only win down under since then btw, he also made the top score in the match). But yes, Laxman was there at the other end (180 runs for 2 dismissals). It was a good cricket wicket with 36 wickets falling in 4 and a half days.

MacGill at the time was as good as any legal spinner except Warne and Gillespie and Bichel were fine bowlers. There have been fewer finer performances than that in the last 20 years, and his overall record against McGrath & Warne stacks up well, as you can see in the table.

by The One Sat 27 Aug 2011, 14:10

Gary 111 wrote:
Henry wrote:His innings against Aus at Adelaide wasn't a one man show. Laxman scored 140 odd and they shared another huge partnership. Adelaide is also the flattest pitch probably in the World, and Aus were missing Mcgrath and Warne from their attack.

You can't denigrate that performance.

Aus were the best team in the world, he batted for nearly 14 hours, faced 616 balls and scored 302 runs including the winning runs as India won for the first time in Aus for 22 years (their only win down under since then btw, he also made the top score in the match). But yes, Laxman was there at the other end (180 runs for 2 dismissals). It was a good cricket wicket with 36 wickets falling in 4 and a half days.

MacGill at the time was as good as any legal spinner except Warne and Gillespie and Bichel were fine bowlers. There have been fewer finer performances than that in the last 20 years, and his overall record against McGrath & Warne stacks up well, as you can see in the table.

his adelaide performance was one of the greatest by an indian batsman no doubt. probably his best overall match performance ever

his record against an aussie attack containing mcgrath and/or warne is extremely ordinary though. an average of 34. the series where he made up most of his aussie average was indeed the 03-04 series, where both were absent

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;orderby=batting_average;player_involve=2000;player_involve=2101;qualmin1=500;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting

by Gary 111 Sat 27 Aug 2011, 14:16

The One wrote:
Gary 111 wrote:
Henry wrote:His innings against Aus at Adelaide wasn't a one man show. Laxman scored 140 odd and they shared another huge partnership. Adelaide is also the flattest pitch probably in the World, and Aus were missing Mcgrath and Warne from their attack.

You can't denigrate that performance.

Aus were the best team in the world, he batted for nearly 14 hours, faced 616 balls and scored 302 runs including the winning runs as India won for the first time in Aus for 22 years (their only win down under since then btw, he also made the top score in the match). But yes, Laxman was there at the other end (180 runs for 2 dismissals). It was a good cricket wicket with 36 wickets falling in 4 and a half days.

MacGill at the time was as good as any legal spinner except Warne and Gillespie and Bichel were fine bowlers. There have been fewer finer performances than that in the last 20 years, and his overall record against McGrath & Warne stacks up well, as you can see in the table.

his adelaide performance was one of the greatest by an indian batsman no doubt. probably his best overall match performance ever

his record against an aussie attack containing mcgrath and/or warne is extremely ordinary though. an average of 34. the series where he made up most of his aussie average was indeed the 03-04 series, where both were absent

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;orderby=batting_average;player_involve=2000;player_involve=2101;qualmin1=500;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting

I said Dravid averaged 51 against McGrath and Warne, and he almost did, he averaged 34 - so I am basically right.

by SG Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:06

India won for the first time in Aus for 22 years (their only win down under since then btw,

It actually isn't. India won at WACA as well after that Adelaide test.

by SG Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:13

I think lot of non Indians have this misconception that Dravid isn't rated enough in India.

Well, if you compare his fan following to that of Tendulkar, then obviously he'll come up short. But following Indian cricket for last 2 decades or so, I can safely say he is rated enough in India.

Had he not been rated he won't have been carried in the team despite doing poorly for best part of last 2-3 seasons.

by SG Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:18

SRT? Great, great player, and a good man. But you sense he KNOWS how special he is, and you sense he feels he's earnt the right to do whatever he wants in regards to Indian cricket. He'll announce that he's missing this test series, or that ODI series, but he fully expects someone to make way for him when he returns. It's dangerous when a player becomes bigger than the team, and is allowed to pick and choose which series he plays or misses, and what position he bats, regardless of the team situation. Just quietly, there were a few raised eyebrows when Dravid put his hand up to open, but SRT refused to move from number four to number three, with the less technically equipped Laxman being shunted up there instead.

No Journalist is brave enough to criticise SRT, but i'm sure deep down, a lot of people feel he damaged his reputation a little bit on this tour.

Thats the thing with the greats. You tend to remember their failures more than their successes while Dravid (who has been a very poor shadow of his former fluent self during last 3 seasons) is being hailed as greater than Tendulkar who had absolutely contrasting fortunes to that of Dravid during the same period.

And I didn't get this Tendulkar damaging his reputation during this Eng tour. Obviously, he was way below par during this tour.

by Brass Monkey Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:23

I don't think it has been damaged a great deal, if at all. He had a poor series, yet he was still one of the better batsmen on display whilst at the wicket, England performed a Herculean feat to keep him quiet for long periods. On flatter wickets against poorer bowling attacks I'm sure he'll be as good as ever.

Oh, and BTW, good to see you back SG.

by SG Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:24

Just quietly, there were a few raised eyebrows when Dravid put his hand up to open, but SRT refused to move from number four to number three, with the less technically equipped Laxman being shunted up there instead.

So how could someone being less technically equipped batsman score almost 3000 runs at no.3 slot at almost 45 then?

And isn't it natural Dravid would open considering that he is no.3 in the batting lineup and more often than not has to come out to bat in first overs of almost every test match India plays (except when Gambhir-Sehwag combo goes great guns).

Strange ways of trying to villify Tendulkar here.

by SG Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:26

Cheers, BM.

I'd rather compliment this wonderful Eng attack for keeping someone like Tendulkar quiet throughout this series.

If anything, this Eng attack should be hailed as the best bowling attack on int'l scene of last few seasons.

by taipan Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:28

Brass Monkey wrote:
Oh, and BTW, good to see you back SG.

The test series is finished,

by SG Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:29

he was still one of the better batsmen on display whilst at the wicket,

This.

Except for his extremely poor outing at Lord's second innings and another poorish outing at TB first innings, he looked to be in fine form. Just that Eng bowlers were determined and prepared enough not to let him play his customary big innings in Eng.

by SG Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:31

Further on Tendulkar, I think it was big mistake on his part to miss out on WI test series. Agreed, WI attack won't have been a patch on Eng's attack but still he'd have benefitted immensely by playing on some less than perfect batting strips in WI.

by Brass Monkey Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:34

Aye SG, I usually probably don't give England enough credit myself, but in this regard the bowlers (and almost importantly the fielders) kept the pressure on probably moreso against Tendulkar than anyone else - it was a tough job, tough plans and we executed them impeccably.

by taipan Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:35

SG wrote:Further on Tendulkar, I think it was big mistake on his part to miss out on WI test series. Agreed, WI attack won't have been a patch on Eng's attack but still he'd have benefitted immensely by playing on some less than perfect batting strips in WI.

Of course IPL had nothing to do with it.

by Brass Monkey Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:37

IPL, WC, it was both their faults - that and his age.

by taipan Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:40

Brass Monkey wrote:IPL, WC, it was both their faults - that and his age.

Well in the WC you are at least playing for your country......

by SG Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:44

Of course IPL had nothing to do with it.

I've always maintained that IPL should be reserved for younger lot. Brand value of IPL would take a massive dip if that were to happen so lets leave it at that. And BTW, I've always hated IPL..... with a passion.

by SG Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:46

And BTW, I've always hated IPL..... with a passion.

This current tour of Eng has only fuelled that hate even more.

by Brass Monkey Tue 30 Aug 2011, 10:54

SG wrote:
Of course IPL had nothing to do with it.
I've always maintained that IPL should be reserved for younger lot. Brand value of IPL would take a massive dip if that were to happen so lets leave it at that. And BTW, I've always hated IPL..... with a passion.

Yeah, I agree. What should happen is the IPL be for international foreigners and younger Indian cricketers or retired from international Indian cricketers. Not the current crop. When they're in the Indian side, they should be well paid enough for the IPL not to matter.

by SG Tue 30 Aug 2011, 13:04

I think they're paid well enough even without IPL with all the moolah they rake in from multi brand endorsements. But as they say you can never have enough of this evil called money.

by Brass Monkey Tue 30 Aug 2011, 13:10

SG wrote:I think they're paid well enough even without IPL with all the moolah they rake in from multi brand endorsements. But as they say you can never have enough of this evil called money.

Yeah, that's what I meant - most of the world is greedy, just want more and more money. So it can only be a thing of professional jealousy, which is difficult to stop because of said greed. Unless the BCCI give them more than the IPL clowns!

by taipan Tue 30 Aug 2011, 13:11

Brass Monkey wrote:
SG wrote:I think they're paid well enough even without IPL with all the moolah they rake in from multi brand endorsements. But as they say you can never have enough of this evil called money.

Yeah, that's what I meant - most of the world is greedy, just want more and more money. So it can only be a thing of professional jealousy, which is difficult to stop because of said greed. Unless the BCCI give them more than the IPL clowns!

They can't, cos they will take the IPL money on top.

by Guest Tue 30 Aug 2011, 13:12

Without bothering to look up any stats, my guess would be that Dravid has played more match winning/saving innings than SRT.

SRT is clearly better to watch when in full flow though and has had a bigger impact off the field than Dravid.

by Brass Monkey Tue 30 Aug 2011, 13:14

taipan wrote:
They can't, cos they will take the IPL money on top.

Yeah, which is why I was suggesting a 'reward' for not playing IPL. Like a central contract with stipulations.

by taipan Tue 30 Aug 2011, 13:15

Brass Monkey wrote:
taipan wrote:
They can't, cos they will take the IPL money on top.

Yeah, which is why I was suggesting a 'reward' for not playing IPL. Like a central contract with stipulations.

Sorry, musunderstood.

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