Why are England's "best seven" batsmen so weak?

by LeFromage Wed 05 Dec 2007, 22:21

Perhaps it has something to do with them being nothing like the "best seven" batsmen in the country...?

(First Class career averages - England's "best seven" in red)

Mark Ramprakash: 53.13
Graeme Hick: 52.36
Kevin Pietersen: 51.57
Samit Patel: 47.25
Neil Dexter: 47.09
John Crawley: 47.46
Alastair Cook: 46.50
Ed Joyce: 46.41
Joe Denly: 45.29
Paul Horton: 45.18
Ali Brown: 43.50
Owais Shah: 43.06
Ian Bell: 43.03
Scott Newman: 42.77
Ed Smith: 41.86
Robert Key: 41.75
David Sales: 41.61
Billy Godleman: 41.40
Mal Loye: 41.35
James Hildreth: 41.02
Ben Smith: 40.86
Mark Butcher: 40.32
Michael Carberry: 40.31
Andrew Strauss: 40.15
Mike Powell: 39.88
Nic Pothas: 39.75 keeper
Stephen Moore: 39.47
Mark Wagh: 39.44
Chris Adams: 39.30
Jason Gallian: 38.93
Ian Blackwell: 38.88
Will Jefferson: 38.58
Michael Yardy: 38.58
Ravi Bopara: 38.55
Rikki Clarke: 38.54
Alex Gidman: 38.45
Adil Rashid: 38.44
Matt Prior: 38.22 keeper
Neil Edwards: 38.16
Michael Vaughan: 38.15
Nick Compton: 38.14
Jim Troughton: 38.05
Jonathan Trott: 37.96
Ian Westwood: 37.78
Usman Afzaal: 37.59
Anthony McGrath: 37.44
Marcus Trescothick: 37.28
Matt Walker: 37.20
Daryl Mitchell: 36.90
Wes Durston: 36.07
Paul Collingwood: 35.97
Vikram Solanki: 35.92
James Benning: 35.17
Iain Sutcliffe: 34.96
James Foster: 34.93 keeper
Andrew Flintoff: 34.90
Tim Ambrose: 34.87 keeper
Steve Davies: 34.86 keeper
Matthew Wood: 34.72
Joe Sayers: 34.67
Peter Trego: 34.37
Jonathan Batty: 33.96 keeper
Mark Pettini: 33.88
Jamie Dalrymple: 33.88
Jimmy Adams: 33.80
Paul Nixon: 33.71 keeper
Christopher Taylor: 33.34
Ben Hutton: 33.21
Darren Maddy: 33.14
Darren Stevens: 33.04
Michael Lumb: 32.86
Luke Sutton: 32.82 keeper
Michael Brown: 32.64
Chris Read: 32.60 keeper
Craig White: 32.53
Mark Ealham: 32.29
Mike Powell: 32.06
Varun Chopra: 32.05
Stephen Peters: 31.75
Bilal Shafayat: 31.27

When four of your batsmen don't even average 40 and there are thirty-three or so guys that score more heavily, you have to wonder if you're picking the right people, don't you? Sure, there are some discrepancies - a few averages slightly inflated due to a lack of experience (although I didn't list anyone with less than a full season to their name) and a few blokes who are too late in the day to play international cricket (I think Jason Gallian might've even retired) - but if you're using the cop-out, "oh, it's only country cricket, the runs are meaningless", then shouldn't England's "best seven" batsmen be right at the top of the averages, given what a piece of piss it is?

Is it any coincidence that Kevin Pietersen, with a far superior average to all of the current contenders, is also a far superior performer in international cricket than any of them?

I think we reward mediocrity way too much in this country. And the "superstars" and probable millionaires in red are confirmation of that.

by LeFromage Wed 05 Dec 2007, 22:42

Giving the inexperienced and the borderline pensioner players a wide berth, England's best seven batting line-up would be something like:

Cook
Bell
Ramprakash
Pietersen
Shah
Joyce
Pothas +

Four blokes not even born in England - that sounds about right...

by Henry Wed 05 Dec 2007, 22:43

It's a funny one. When you look at the career Test averages of our top 6, all of them apart from Bopara (Who has played one Test) average over 40, yet it doesnt feel like that is quite enough. Cook, Vaughan, Bell, and Collingwood all have pretty much identical Test averages, but only KP has really broken away from the pack to get big runs consistently, and subsequently average over 50.

I think the averages of our batsmen when games against Bangladesh and the Windies are taken away may give us a better idea of where each player is at.

Basically, it seems like some of England's batsmen have adopted the attitude of some lazy county batsmen of just doing enough to make sure their place in the side is not questioned, but not really doing enough to win their team matches.

by JKLever Wed 05 Dec 2007, 22:45

Dello wrote:
(I think Jason Gallian might've even retired)

he's as good as retired, he's joined the essex misfits for 2 years.

How would that theory have stood up 20 years ago though - Gower certainly wasn't that good in Fc cricket.

And just using averages suggests James Hildreth could easily score 15 test 100's if Vaughan can.

by spangler Wed 05 Dec 2007, 22:46

Most of them average more in test cricket than in FC alone.
And I'd say the England side is one of the least experienced in FC cricket than their (major) rivals...

Send them back to their counties for a season.

by JKLever Wed 05 Dec 2007, 22:47

Henry wrote:It's a funny one. When you look at the career Test averages of our top 6, all of them apart from Bopara (Who has played one Test) average over 40, yet it doesnt feel like that is quite enough. Cook, Vaughan, Bell, and Collingwood all have pretty much identical Test averages, but only KP has really broken away from the pack to get big runs consistently, and subsequently average over 50.

I think the averages of our batsmen when games against Bangladesh and the Windies are taken away may give us a better idea of where each player is at.

Basically, it seems like some of England's batsmen have adopted the attitude of some lazy county batsmen of just doing enough to make sure their place in the side is not questioned, but not really doing enough to win their team matches.

We don't have a world class batsman apart from KP.
Thats the simple truth.
We have plenty of test class players but only 1 big gun.

by LeFromage Wed 05 Dec 2007, 22:48

JKLever wrote:
Dello wrote:
(I think Jason Gallian might've even retired)

he's as good as retired, he's joined the essex misfits for 2 years.

How would that theory have stood up 20 years ago though - Gower certainly wasn't that good in Fc cricket.

And just using averages suggests James Hildreth could easily score 15 test 100's if Vaughan can.

There's always quirks, of course, but if a guy like Paul Collingwood, with a FC average of 35 can scrape over 40 at Test level, you have to wonder what a guy who averages ten more than him in FC cricket could achieve.

by Henry Wed 05 Dec 2007, 22:55

But with one guy averaging over 50 and 4 others averaging over 40, our batting should really be considered our strength. We certainly shouldn't have lost as many Tests as we have in the last year.

I think our batting just collapses in a heap at crucial periods, but then we cash in against the Windies and a poor Pakistani attack to keep the averages lookng good, and then when the time comes for Graveney and co to sit around the table and discuss selections, what a player did in the second innings against Pakistan at Multan, or against Australia in the second innings at Adelaide is not taken into account. They just see players who all average over 40 and think, "Same again, please."

by spangler Wed 05 Dec 2007, 22:57

Isn't 50 the new 40?

by horace Wed 05 Dec 2007, 22:57

Dello is making strong points in this thread...

i think it might help in the development of all english young players if they experienced lower grade cricket in other countries...like a gap year...didn't hurt beefy having a stint here as a young player...and it would help sort the sheep from the goats

by tac Wed 05 Dec 2007, 23:00

Give 'em all a year of Grade cricket in Sydney, Perth or Melbourne . . . .

by krikri Wed 05 Dec 2007, 23:02

Henry wrote:It's a funny one. When you look at the career Test averages of our top 6, all of them apart from Bopara (Who has played one Test) average over 40, yet it doesnt feel like that is quite enough.

40 isn't the benchmark for a world class batsman as it once was though, it's good, but times have moved on, quality of bowling has obviously declined. 50+ is the average of a world class player now.

Bopara's stocks rose way too high because of that half century against sri lanka in the world cup as well. No-one can honestly say he's deserving of a place in the england test team, it's debatable whether he even deserves a place in the one day team.

by Chivalry Augustus Thu 06 Dec 2007, 01:04

England clearly don't care about runs in County Cricket. Samit Patel had a great season and was roundly told to ****** off by the England selectors for fitness reasons, regarding "Lions" selection as well as Twenty20 selection.

Doesn't stop crocks, so why fatties?

by Basil Thu 06 Dec 2007, 01:04

horace wrote:Dello is making strong points in this thread...

i think it might help in the development of all english young players if they experienced lower grade cricket in other countries...like a gap year...didn't hurt beefy having a stint here as a young player...and it would help sort the sheep from the goats

Sage.

by Invader Zim Thu 06 Dec 2007, 01:14

Alec Stewart spent a few years playing for Midland-Guildford in the WACA grade...did him no harm at all.

by Ross Thu 06 Dec 2007, 01:32

Interesting list. I might produce a convict list shortly to see where our Test batsmen stand compared to our Shield players.

by LeFromage Thu 06 Dec 2007, 01:50

And if it blows my argument out of the water, I'll delete it Wink

by embee Thu 06 Dec 2007, 02:03

Robin Smith played at South Perth

by Ross Thu 06 Dec 2007, 02:07

Test players are in bold:

RT Ponting 60.56
L Pomersbach 60.10
PA Jaques 56.88
DJ Hussey 55.81
MEK Hussey 54.79
SM Katich 53.67
ML Hayden 53.42
JL Langer 50.67
ML Love 49.92
BJ Hodge 48.62
CJL Rogers 47.49
MTG Elliott 47.40
SR Watson 47.05
AC Gilchrist 44.68 (keeper)
MJ Di Venuto 44.66
MJ North 44.03
DJ Thornely 42.96
MJ Clarke 42.80
A Symonds 42.79
BJ Haddin 41.17 (keeper)
CL White 39.96
TR Birt 39.74
MJ Cosgrove 39.42
JP Maher 39.40
PJ Forrest 39.30
AC Voges 38.52
LR Butterworth 38.33
N Jewell 38.17
DJ Marsh 37.55
GJ Bailey 36.76
MS Wade 36.66 (keeper)
L Ronchi 36.09 (keeper)
MG Dighton 36.07
CT Perren 35.75
CJ Ferguson 35.30
GB Hogg 34.90
GJ Mail 33.30
SE Marsh 33.29
EJM Cowan 32.92
AB McDonald 32.33
AJ Nye 32.22
SA Deitz 31.81
JR Hopes 31.35
LR Mash 30.03

The top four in the Test team are in the top seven of this list while Gilly's average is obviously the best of the 'keepers. Token and the Kiddie have a dozen batsmen ahead of them but even they still have FC averages in the low-40s

by Invader Zim Thu 06 Dec 2007, 02:07

Ross wrote:Interesting list. I might produce a convict list shortly to see where our Test batsmen stand compared to our Shield players.

Well Paris's Shield average is about 45...

by HH_pink Thu 06 Dec 2007, 02:20

Wow, doesn't that make you look real smart. Laughing

by Growler Thu 06 Dec 2007, 02:21

Of your current bats, Hayden will surely be the next to retire - but who's likely go after him?

Who in that list are openers, and which one is most likely to replace MtB?

by embee Thu 06 Dec 2007, 02:37

Growler wrote:Of your current bats, Hayden will surely be the next to retire - but who's likely go after him?

Who in that list are openers, and which one is most likely to replace MtB?

Rogers

by Invader Zim Thu 06 Dec 2007, 02:54

HH_pink wrote:Wow, doesn't that make you look real smart.

What.

by tac Thu 06 Dec 2007, 03:18

Ross wrote:Test players are in bold:

RT Ponting 60.56
L Pomersbach 60.10
PA Jaques 56.88
DJ Hussey 55.81
MEK Hussey 54.79
SM Katich 53.67
ML Hayden 53.42
JL Langer 50.67
ML Love 49.92
BJ Hodge 48.62
CJL Rogers 47.49
MTG Elliott 47.40
SR Watson 47.05
AC Gilchrist 44.68 (keeper)
MJ Di Venuto 44.66
MJ North 44.03
DJ Thornely 42.96
MJ Clarke 42.80
A Symonds 42.79
BJ Haddin 41.17 (keeper)
CL White 39.96
TR Birt 39.74
MJ Cosgrove 39.42
JP Maher 39.40
PJ Forrest 39.30
AC Voges 38.52
LR Butterworth 38.33
N Jewell 38.17
DJ Marsh 37.55
GJ Bailey 36.76
MS Wade 36.66 (keeper)
L Ronchi 36.09 (keeper)
MG Dighton 36.07
CT Perren 35.75
CJ Ferguson 35.30
GB Hogg 34.90
GJ Mail 33.30
SE Marsh 33.29
EJM Cowan 32.92
AB McDonald 32.33
AJ Nye 32.22
SA Deitz 31.81
JR Hopes 31.35
LR Mash 30.03

The top four in the Test team are in the top seven of this list while Gilly's average is obviously the best of the 'keepers. Token and the Kiddie have a dozen batsmen ahead of them but even they still have FC averages in the low-40s

And those above Pup and Roy in italics have all played or been considered for test spots. Obvioulsy selectors are getting things pretty right. Just need to get NotParis in the team somehow.

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