Will Australia sink as low as the Windies?

We all knew there would be a decline in Aussie cricket after Mcgrath and Warne retired, but did anyone think they would sink THIS low? I think it was just assumed that Australia would always produce decent batsmen, but I remember Rod Marsh being interviewed as far back as 10 years ago, and him saying that Australia simply wasn't producing top class young batsmen anymore.

People said Australia would never sink as low as the West Indies because of the superior cricketing structure in Aus. But how good is that structure really? Was it better before (say 1995-2007) than it is now? What was the exact point when it started to go wrong? Can Australia's decline solely be blamed on T20 cricket? Or is it complacency? Or simply is it a case of being a period in time where, just as the early 90s brought a huge rush of Aussie cricketing talent, the 2010's is seeing a dearth of young talent coming through the system, regardless of the quality of coaching and guidance they are receiving?

And can anybody be sure that Australia's cricketing decline wont be just as bad as the West Indies' decline was from the mid 90s onwards? It's starting to look eerily similar- The drop in general standards both on and off the field, the competition from other sports (let's just assume here that the Big Bash and IPL can pretty much be classified as 'other sports' for Australia, along with AFL and soccer- just as basketball, football, and athletics has been considered to be drawing talented young West Indians away from cricket since the early 90s ).

So what is the problem? And what is the answer?

Obviously I'm an English fan, and I'm enjoying seeing my team doing well against Australia (and England haven't retained the Ashes yet). This post for me is more about the study of ascendency and decline than it is me genuinely caring about the health of Australian cricket. Is decline inevitable, no matter what measures you put in place to prevent it? Ultimately, do sporting teams and empires have to fall in order to rise? And rise in order to fall? Does true sustained success need the human motivation and mental scars of previous failure and injustice to drive them towards domination, ie social inequality for West Indians, and years of on-field cricketing pain in the 1980s for Australia?. Like the West Indies, and despite all the talk at the height of Australia's success of them ensuring that Australian cricket stayed at the top for a long, long time, did they simply start to believe that talented cricketers would keep popping up endlessly? Did they get sloppy?

Thoughts.

We sort of did go fairly low after the triple retirements of Lillee, Marsh and Chappell but eventually rejuvenated to have arguably our era of most sustained success when more countries played the game in contrast with the heady Bradman days.

At least there are plenty of decent bowlers around.

However, all the batsman seem to be just limited overs cricketers who rely solely on their eye rather than technique or application.

No.

Oz have the structures in place, the willpower and the pride (West Indies have only ever been bound together by the team spirit of victory, and individual ambition.)

It is a trough that has lasted since just before the end of Punter's captaincy, exacerbated by the fashion glitz and money of the Big Bash and worsened by bizarre squad selections, with far too much in the line of spoilt brat player attitudes up to and including this tour.

But I'm sure Oz'll soon be back. Perhaps even later this calendar year.

They have the seamers already, they may be finding competition for the spin slot, and the rest is selecting and promoting the squad/team properly.

Clarke may have to go before Oz rise to #1 though. His batting can be excellent, some of hs captaincy adventurous, but it seems he is no leader of men. Or rather, boys. He seems to engender factionalism and spilts, and has chosen both friends and enemies unwisely.

WideWally wrote:At least there are plenty of decent bowlers around.

However, all the batsman seem to be just limited overs cricketers who rely solely on their eye rather than technique or application.

None of them are capable of being rooted to the crease. T20 is often cited as the biggest reason for our decline in this area but other countries can still produce quality batsmen. We need to focus more on the SS and less on the BB though. Hussey being spirited over to Sydney to promote the Thunder won't help matters.

Red wrote:

WideWally wrote:At least there are plenty of decent bowlers around.

However, all the batsman seem to be just limited overs cricketers who rely solely on their eye rather than technique or application.

None of them are capable of being rooted to the crease.  T20 is often cited as the biggest reason for our decline in this area but other countries can still produce quality batsmen. We need to focus more on the SS and less on the BB though. Hussey being spirited over to Sydney to promote the Thunder won't help matters.

Don't get personal.

That sentence sounds like Dr Horace Faustus invoking up his Mephistopheles, Simon Katich.

Red wrote:We sort of did go fairly low after the triple retirements of Lillee, Marsh and Chappell but eventually rejuvenated to have arguably our era of most sustained success when more countries played the game in contrast with the heady Bradman days.

Well if Aus do go on to lose this 5-0', it is arguably the lowest point ever.

It would be, it's a long way off and 5-0 predictions may well look stupid in a months time but England were bummed 5-0 against a side containing great players.

With the best will in the world, England are an organised hard working side with some world class but not great players.

Aus seem to have the pace bowling stocks still but I reckon some of the 90's bats are a bit peeved to watch some of these muppets get the chance to wear a baggy green.

Some of their decisions post the 2010-11 Ashes have been very poor. Dumping Simon Katich was described recently as- "In hindsight, the equivalent of burning a $50 bill to light a cigar."

Red wrote:

WideWally wrote:At least there are plenty of decent bowlers around.

However, all the batsman seem to be just limited overs cricketers who rely solely on their eye rather than technique or application.

None of them are capable of being rooted to the crease.  T20 is often cited as the biggest reason for our decline in this area but other countries can still produce quality batsmen. We need to focus more on the SS and less on the BB though. Hussey being spirited over to Sydney to promote the Thunder won't help matters.

What does that have tp do with Shield cricket

Paris will either play SS and ODD games for the Warriors in which case he may help some young wozzie batsmen see the application needed to be a successful international cricketer

or he will retire

and some other young wozzie batsman gets a chance to play some fc cricket

I'd say the England side stacks up fairly well. In terms of 'World Class' there's Cook, Prior, Swann and Anderson who I'd rate there. KP at one time would have been there too, so that's 4.5.

Sure it's not South Africa, but you can understand how they got to #1

I think that Aus are one batsmen away from being more than competitive. It was only 7ish months ago that they were toe-to-toe with South Africa. Similar personnel. I think everyone is going overboard a little - their game against spin bowling is the big weakness. It has cost them 5 of the 6 Tests. How many teams are going to be able to exploit this? In the other Test of their six losses they came up against Anderson, who seemed to be at the height of his powers.

OK, they couldn't travel back in time to face a younger, low in confidence Anderson, who had just come back from injury, had barely any FC cricket behind him and didn't know his game inside out. They should be admonished for that. I mean, why they HELL couldn't they just travel back in time, befriend Matthew Hayden, tell him they love his cooking, have a barbie round his house, talk about God, talk about coriander, talk about the state of fishing in the Burdekin River, talk about how Lara Bingle and Michael Clarke make a super couple, THEN talk about how they're going to destroy James Anderson all together in a jolly group. Then roll up to Brisbane and begin to MERCILESSLY RAPE James Anderson.

What sort of batsmen are they?

Simple analysis can help us in this regard. These are the questions that must be asked: How fast are they scoring their runs? How tall are they? Can they play late seam movement? Did they shore up well against Pakistan? Are they gay? Are they South African? When did they last play pin the tail on the donkey? Was that donkey an Indian fielder? If so, was the Indian fielder a Pakistani in disguise? Have they seen much of David Warner? Can they play with madness? Have they got a whole homunculus fallacy thing going on? Have they got a whole Oprah Winfrey thing going on? Finally, and most importantly, what's their favourite sandwich?

If we can mete it out with them, they'll be a lot better off.

When the Windies declined no English county would employ any of them - Aus have still got a lot of reserves tearing up county cricket - so i'd suggest they'll still remain competitive. They shouldn't sink below Nzzzzzzz or Sri Lanka like the Windies did.

Well, Snoozia aren't a great deal weaker at the moment. In fact pretty similar - fragile top six, stubborn tailenders, a useful young seam attack but bugger all in the spin department.

Australia are lucky there's several mediocre teams at the moment, though you can't rule out the possibility of them having a spell in eighth place in the rankings. But I think their current plight is only a temporary decline, it's down to a failure in succession planning after losing so many greats around the same time. It's hard to break the cycle once youngsters keep having to be thrown into a losing side, it takes a tough character like an Allan Border or a Nasser Hussain to drag a side up from the basement and create upward momentum again. I expect that man to emerge certainly before the end of this decade.

Whoa!!!!! Shane Warne, anno 1992??

In his special little mind, yes......

My simple answer to Trev's question is "No". We are always competitive at home, and as Wally says, our bowlers are still world class. We just need to find 2 or 3 quality young bats (I still reckon Bailey and Voges can be the immediate answer) and rebuild the top 6 around Pup.

I reckon 4th place is about right for Aus, with SAF, Eng and India superior to us. I'd still back us home and away against the rest, and I can't see that changing much in the coming years. The Windies fell as low as 7 or 8.

Would you really back this Australia side to win away series in Pakistan (UAE) or Sri Lanka?

Skully - don't you fancy Burns or Doolan?

Brass Monkey wrote:

Simple analysis can help us in this regard. These are the questions that must be asked: How fast are they scoring their runs? How tall are they? Can they play late seam movement? Did they shore up well against Pakistan? Are they gay? Are they South African? When did they last play pin the tail on the donkey? Was that donkey an Indian fielder? If so, was the Indian fielder a Pakistani in disguise? Have they seen much of David Warner? Can they play with madness? Have they got a whole homunculus fallacy thing going on? Have they got a whole Oprah Winfrey thing going on? Finally, and most importantly, what's their favourite sandwich?

Australia Selection Meeting, Game Three

[PICTURE THE SCENE, AN EMPTY CORNER OF A DESERTED BAR, POSSIBLY A WALKABOUT. FOUR HOLLOW EYED MEN STARE DESOLATELY AT THEIR LARGE GLASSES OF WARM BEER.]

Andy Bichel: Huh? There must be someone else we can call up.
Rodney Marsh: What about Katich?
Boof: Fleas? Nah, Pup wouldn't have it.
Bichel: Quiney?
Marsh: Strewth, i'm still trying to forget him.
Bichel: Ponting?
Boof: Too old.
John Inverarity: What about that little ginger guy from Victoria?
Boof: Rogers. He's already playing.
Inverarity: Really?
Boof: Yeah, you told me to pick him. Spent most of the Lords Test trying to fend off Swanner with his box.
Inverarity: Good, you need balls for Test cricket, I remember once when Bill Lawry,,,,
Boof: Enough! Not another one of your f**king Bill Lawry stories.
Inverarity: All i'm saying is he could still do a job at the top of the order, when we recalled Simmo in 78...
Marsh: Enough of this crap.
Bichel: Agreed Bacchus. What about Ferguson?
Boof: Who?
Marsh: No, I don't know either. We could play Wade as a batsman?
Boof: He can't bat.
Marsh: He can't keep either and that didn't stop us.
Bichel: Cosgrove?
Boof: Too fat. Plus last time he played he ate my emergency sandwich.
Inverarity: What about Martyn?
Boof: Martin who?
Inverarity: Damien Martyn.
Boof: He retired in 2006 you old goat.
Bichel: Look, this is next to useless.
Inverarity: Brad Hodge?
[SILENCE]
[A TALL LOOKING MAN IN A SMART SUIT APPROACHES]
James Sutherland: G'day boys.
All: G'day.
Sutherland: How's it going? You lads stretching the envelope?
Boof: We've decided to start with a fresh sheet. Reassess all our batsmen from scratch and only pick those who we are confident can score runs for the rest of the series.
Sutherland: Excellent. Being proactive, not reactive, moving the goal posts. I like it. How's it going?
Boof: Here.
[SUTHERLAND EXAMINES THE LIST]
Sutherland: That's just a blank sheet of paper.
Boof: I know, but we've ruled a lot of people out....
Sutherland: We need to think outside of the box here fellas. Some fresh blue sky thinking. Be innovative in selecting our target audience in the field of field interaction. I've enlisted a top expert. Introducing The Brass Monkey. The Brass Monkey is the latest paradigm in innovation technology from the University of Western Australia. I've fed in the history of every Test, First Class game and Big Bash Bosh T20 experience into its programming. It knows everything about cricket, The Brass Monkey is mightier than the Hawkeye - a mere abacus, its more accurate than the DRS - a simple chimp in a box, The Brass Monkey can calculate the trajectory of every single leg before wicket dismissal Shane Watson will ever experience in a nanosecond. It can predict the Warner family's next tweet before they've even been born. With a little more programming it may even be able to work out where Mitchell Johnson's next delivery is going.
The Brass Monkey: HOW YA GOIN NACKERS?
All: G'day Deep Thought.
The Brass Monkey: G'DAY. RIGHT, TIME TO GIVE THE POMS A BATH.
Sutherland: So, we can ask Deep Thought any question, bend the paradigm. Ask anything about Lyon, the Khawaja, Everything!
The Brass Monkey: OH YES COP THAT!
Bichel: Okay, lets try this out. How fast are we scoring our runs?
The Brass Monkey: STOP WINGING YA WHACKERS, ITS 2.94 RUNS PEROVER
Marsh: Strewth. That's incredible. How tall are they?
The Brass Monkey: TIME FOR A SPELL, HAND ME A VB
[BOOF HANDS THE BRASS MONKEY A VB]
The Brass Monkey: OUR TOP 7 HAS A COMBINED HEIGHT OF 12 METRES 47 CENTIMETERS
Inverarity: I remember big Bruce Reid, well over 2 meters he stood in his mighty stockinged feet, I said to him once, lofty...
Boof: Shut up you old knacker! Brass Monkey, can they play late seam movement?
The Brass Monkey: NO.
Boof: Can they play a heavy ball?
The Brass Monkey: NO.
Boof: A heavyish, slightly ladylike, slightly petulant ball?
The Brass Monkey: NO.
Boof: Off spin?
The Brass Monkey: NO.
Boof: Part time off spin?
The Brass Monkey: CHRIST NO.
Boof: Leaning over while running into the stumps seam bowling?
The Brass Monkey: YES. THEY CAN PLAY THAT. DEEP THOUGHT WANTS A BEER.
Bichel: Did they shore up well against Pakistan?
The Brass Monkey: OH YES COP THAT. 3-0 AND WATSON EVEN SCORED A HUNDRED
All: Wow!
Inverarity: I remember in 1979 when Alan Hurst was bowling out Pakistan and....
Marsh: Fark! For the love of god shut up Invariety!
Boof: Are they gay?
The Brass Monkey: ANYONE SEEN MY CLIPPERS? THE TASH NEEDS A TRIM UP. THEY'RE NOT GAY BUT SIDDLE DOESN'T LIKE THE TASTE OF A NICE JUICY STEAK.
Inverarity: Bruce Oldfield used to put steak in his gloves when Tim Wall was...
Marsh: Last warning Invariety, or we'll lock youin that room with Neil Harvey again. Now, are they South African?
The Brass Monkey: STREWTH NO. WE DON'T LIKE SOUTH AFRICANS, REMEMBER THAT ONE WITH ALL THE HOMEWORK WE USED TO RACIALLY DISCRIMINATE...?
Sutherland: Ssssshhhh! I told you not to mention that....
Bichel: When did they last play pin the tail on the donkey?
The Brass Monkey: LAST NIGHT IN YOUR ROOM.
Bichel: Was that donkey an Indian fielder?
The Brass Monkey: NO, YOU WERE THE DONKEY.
Bichel: If so, was the Indian fielder a Pakistani in disguise?
The Brass Monkey: NO, THAT WAS YOU. THEY THOUGHT YOU WERE A DONKEY. IN FACT I'M NOT SO SURE THAT WAS A PIN EITHER....
Boof: Have they seen much of David Warner?
The Brass Monkey: YOU KNOW WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT BLOKES WITH BIG MOES...?
Boof: That they play with madness?
The Brass Monkey: NO, THAT THEY SWISH WILDLY AND END UP AS ESCAPE GOATS
Marsh: Have they got a whole homunculus fallacy thing going on?
The Brass Monkey: NO, THAT'S JUST WATSON TRYING TO JUSTIFY REVIEWING ANOTHER LBW DISMISSAL
Boof: Have they got a whole Oprah Winfrey thing going on?
The Brass Monkey: OPRAH WINFREY WOULD AVERAGE 2.17 RUNS MORE THAN PHILIP HUGHES IF SELECTED AT NUMBER FOUR.
Sutherland: Shall I get on to the passport office?
Boof: Nah - lets just stick with Hughes, at least he's cheap to book.
Inverarity: Finally, and most importantly, what's their favourite sandwich?
The Brass Monkey: HANG ON, I'VE GOT MY BOX CAUGHT IN MY UNDIES...
[SMOKE STARTS TO ESCAPE FROM THE BRASS MONKEY'S GRILL]
Boof: Sod this, my head hurts, lets just draw the names out of a hat.
Inverarity: I'll get on the phone to Andrew Hilditch, he's got to be worth a go...
[THE BRASS MONKEY TOPPLES OVER]

I think i've got too much time on my hands this week....

beamer wrote:Would you really back this Australia side to win away series in Pakistan (UAE) or Sri Lanka?

We beat Sri Lanka in Lanka with basically this side (Marsh was in the side) inside the last 2 years, and the Wackies are a rabble. They could flog us one week and we could flog them the next. I'd back Pup to make 500 in a 3 Test series in Pakistan.

PeterCS wrote:Skully - don't you fancy Burns or Doolan?

As I said in the past few days, I'd not heard of Burns so my views on him would be invalid, and I told Red yesterday that Doolan seems to be made of the right stuff.

Gary 111 wrote:I think i've got too much time on my hands this week....

Time well spent!

Aye, grouse work, Gaz, and probably more accurate than you realise.