England qualified spinners who might not be s**t

With Monty's off the field problems and Kerrigan's shaky start, who else is there on the radar, immediate or distant?

If we're lucky we'll get another couple of years out of Swann, we've got so used to having a wicket taking threat from spin over the last few years but there's the sudden realisation we could be back to square one in that department before long. Perhaps back to a holding spinner who gets a few wickets @ 40 and can bat at 7 or 8...

So, any names who could be better than that?

beamer wrote:With Monty's off the field problems and Kerrigan's shaky start, who else is there on the radar, immediate or distant?

If we're lucky we'll get another couple of years out of Swann, we've got so used to having a wicket taking threat from spin over the last few years but there's the sudden realisation we could be back to square one in that department before long. Perhaps back to a holding spinner who gets a few wickets @ 40 and can bat at 7 or 8...

So, any names who could be better than that?

Dello might have had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he mentioned Borthwick, but it might not be such a daft idea if he could hold down a place at number six or seven.

It's a pretty empty cupboard. Borthwick and Rashid have become batsmen who occasionally come to the party in the second innings on a turner.

I don't know who else there is. George Dockrell's not England qualified (yet), I think, and he's having a poor season (10 wickets @ 51) - albeit has a good career record so far (wickets @ 28).

Rafiq looked promising last season, but has gone to crap. Briggs is chipping away but not progressing.

Maybe Zafar Ansari might be a decent long term bet in the Ashton Agar style - a SLA all rounder of sorts.

Stay fit, Swanny...

I thought that I would look up Moeen's bowling stats: I wish I hadn't bothered - 13 wickets @ 47.

I hadn't actually appreciated just how low the bowling stocks were until I went searching to try and answer the OP.

I even checked through the England u19s from the past 12 months to see if there were any spinners getting talked up in the slightest.

Not a one.

As the list of recent debuts shows, we're struggling to find talent in all areas really. There's perhaps more obvious potential among the batsmen than in terms of bowling, but it's really hard to identify the players who will be the clear successors to the current generation. Perhaps that's always the case and players emerge from unexpected sources. 5 years ago Jimmy was still mostly shit, Swanny a talent seemingly to be unfulfilled at the top level and Trott just another Kolpak Yarpie taking up a place in county cricket I guess...

Don't expect too much from Brett D'Oliveira either - at least not for a good few years. Can't say I envy him as a wrist-spinner plying his trade at New Road (or the Premier Stadium as it might be called next season:evil:) - short boundaries, slow and low pitches - a leggie's nightmare.

Is he going to be a specialist spinner or can he bat as well? Saw him come in at 9 I think in a T20 but certainly didn't look like a rabbit.

beamer wrote:Is he going to be a specialist spinner or can he bat as well? Saw him come in at 9 I think in a T20 but certainly didn't look like a rabbit.

He's not the worst with the bat and I think in time he might develop into a number 7, he's also an excellent fielder. From what I've seen of him (white ball stuff only) - he doesn't give the ball a big rip - but that might be a tactic to cut down on the number of loose balls he might otherwise send down.

I hope he gets a run in the four-day side between now and the end of the season - that's the only way he's going to improve.

Sorry guys, can't help you this time. Our spinners are also shit.

taipan wrote:Sorry guys, can't help you this time. Our spinners are also shit.

You haven't got one who bats at nine have you? If you have and he's got an English parent - we'll take a punt on him!

pommy patto has retired his dobbers but can turn a ball off a roof

Can we get Harris a UK passport?

Azeem Rafiq looks the most promising young English spinner I've seen in the last couple of years. Can't get a first class game for Yorkshire, though.

What's happened to the Northants spinner-producing conveyor belt?

Henry wrote:Azeem Rafiq looks the most promising young English spinner I've seen in the last couple of years. Can't get a first class game for Yorkshire, though.

What's happened to the Northants spinner-producing conveyor belt?

Sick of getting fined, I think.

TBH, I'm not sure. Notts nicked most of them.

But I'm certain that the constant deductions in points that used to happen (because the opposition spinners were shite) didn't help the situation. We stopped producing spinning pitches. The next in line, like Budd Bailey, had f*ck all to work with and got tonked.

There're all these theories that it's better to learn your trade on pitches that aren't conducive to spin, but I'm of the opposite opinion - the likes of Swann, Brown, Panesar, Davies and White learned to spin the ball hard on spinning pitches.

Dry that up, dry up the production line.

Henry wrote:Azeem Rafiq looks the most promising young English spinner I've seen in the last couple of years. Can't get a first class game for Yorkshire, though.

What's happened to the Northants spinner-producing conveyor belt?

Well obviously.

doremi wrote:

Henry wrote:Azeem Rafiq looks the most promising young English spinner I've seen in the last couple of years. Can't get a first class game for Yorkshire, though.

What's happened to the Northants spinner-producing conveyor belt?

Well obviously.

Obviously because Adil Rashid is better?

Adil Rashid has gone backwards so much as a bowler it's all rather depressing. Gets the odd token over before lunch/tea these days, otherwise is very much a batsman in the Yorkshire team, and to be fair, he's averaging 70 this season.

just like Borthwick, and that other spinner, Liam thingy.

Henry wrote:Adil Rashid has gone backwards so much as a bowler it's all rather depressing. Gets the odd token over before lunch/tea these days, otherwise is very much a batsman in the Yorkshire team, and to be fair, he's averaging 70 this season.

I was implying to the emphasis in doremi's post.

But, to be fair, even in his shit current state he's still twice the bowler Rafiq will ever be. Rashid just took 4/32 and scored 76. Rafiq averages 22 and 2 wickets per match.

Brass Monkey wrote:

Henry wrote:Azeem Rafiq looks the most promising young English spinner I've seen in the last couple of years. Can't get a first class game for Yorkshire, though.

What's happened to the Northants spinner-producing conveyor belt?

Sick of getting fined, I think.

TBH, I'm not sure. Notts nicked most of them.

But I'm certain that the constant deductions in points that used to happen (because the opposition spinners were shite) didn't help the situation. We stopped producing spinning pitches. The next in line, like Budd Bailey, had f*ck all to work with and got tonked.

There're all these theories that it's better to learn your trade on pitches that aren't conducive to spin, but I'm of the opposite opinion - the likes of Swann, Brown, Panesar, Davies and White learned to spin the ball hard on spinning pitches.

Dry that up, dry up the production line.

What Swann and Monty have in common and that may be due to the turning pitches they played on at Wantage Road is the speed they both bowl at - neither of them are classic slow bowlers: they know they have to make the ball hit the pitch to really make it turn and bounce. That's probably why they were so successful in India.

Basil wrote:
What Swann and Monty have in common and that may be due to the turning pitches they played on at Wantage Road is the speed they both bowl at - neither of them are classic slow bowlers: they know they have to make the ball hit the pitch to really make it turn and bounce. That's probably why they were so successful in India.

Yeah, both whack it into the pitch a bit for a spinner - the environment was a perfect one for them to learn in.

This is why I was always pushing for Sales in 2007-8 - we had subcontinental tours and who better than someone who succeeds on turning pitches.

Those days are gone now anyway, we've fallen into line with the rest of the country. The England players learn all their 'foreign cricket' on 'A' tours.

Basil wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:

Henry wrote:Azeem Rafiq looks the most promising young English spinner I've seen in the last couple of years. Can't get a first class game for Yorkshire, though.

What's happened to the Northants spinner-producing conveyor belt?

Sick of getting fined, I think.

TBH, I'm not sure. Notts nicked most of them.

But I'm certain that the constant deductions in points that used to happen (because the opposition spinners were shite) didn't help the situation. We stopped producing spinning pitches. The next in line, like Budd Bailey, had f*ck all to work with and got tonked.

There're all these theories that it's better to learn your trade on pitches that aren't conducive to spin, but I'm of the opposite opinion - the likes of Swann, Brown, Panesar, Davies and White learned to spin the ball hard on spinning pitches.

Dry that up, dry up the production line.

What Swann and Monty have in common and that may be due to the turning pitches they played on at Wantage Road is the speed they both bowl at - neither of them are classic slow bowlers: they know they have to make the ball hit the pitch to really make it turn and bounce. That's probably why they were so successful in India.

I don't think its the speed they bowl at- Giles bowled a similar pace to Monty, Croft bowled a similar pace to Swann, its the fact they really give it a rip.

Too many of our spinners, and Kerrigan seems to be another one of these, are happy to trundle up and just plonk it on a length. They should be trying to rip every ball. Even if the wicket doesn't turn the more revs you put on the ball the more drift and dip you get.

Monty with his pianists fingers and Swann with his unorthodox grip get much more turn than the traditional English finger spinner.

To that extent i'm not sure a turning home pitch helps particularly with their development, it would mean they get more of a bowl in CC but it would also reward the trundler type spinner too.

Gary 111 wrote:
To that extent i'm not sure a turning home pitch helps particularly with their development, it would mean they get more of a bowl in CC but it would also reward the trundler type spinner too.

Opposition teams would pack their side with spinners and not many succeeded. Trundlers didn't do very well on our pitches.

Gary 111 wrote:Monty with his pianists fingers

they got him into trouble in Brighton