So, thoughts on Nathan Lyon

by pinger Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:45

For some time now I have been dissapointed with how the Australian cricketing press has talked about his tenure and the implied "precarious" nature of his position. Unless Shane Keith Warne tugs on the whites he is our first picked spinner. Even the "quick, give him a passport" BS with Fawad Ahmed indicated the lack of respect from the press in my opinion.

For a number of years Lyon has been our clear best spinning option, albeit usually a defensive one, but nonetheless important.

He can hold up an end as a number 11, and is decent in the field.

He has outbowled Swann in this test (admittedly benefitting from some of the English middle order getting done by the bounce), and I am not going to suggest he will continue to outbowl the world class Swann, but he surely has to now have cemented his place into the Australian team.

I also think he is a bowler that will also benefit from some of Clarke's more positive and attacking fields.

Thoughts?

by LeFromage Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:52

Thought he looked decent in England and he's carried that on into this series.

Whether he actually is decent, I've no idea, as England tend to play spin as badly as fast bowling and have made some innocuous tweakers appear to be world beaters - Bruce Martin and that Paul Harris spring to mind in recent times.

The truth is, if Australia played Steve Smith as their lone spinner and gave him enough overs, England would give him a few wickets, no problem. Or if Michael Clarke turned his arm over more often.

Lyon's certainly better than Ashton Agar, though.

by Brass Monkey Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:53

I don't know about Clarke helping him, but he's easily Aus' premier spinner. His record isn't even that bad, anyway. It's just not Warne-esque.

by JGK Mon 25 Nov 2013, 13:21

On Inside Cricket tonight, Lyon mentioned how supportive Clarke is and how much he's enjoying having Haddin behind the stumps.

by beamer Mon 25 Nov 2013, 13:31

Brass Monkey wrote:I don't know about Clarke helping him, but he's easily Aus' premier spinner. His record isn't even that bad, anyway. It's just not Warne-esque.

Yeah, he's competent enough... the Aussies will always have unrealistically high standards for obvious reasons when it comes to spinners though - they thought MacGill was shit, after all...

by PeterCS Mon 25 Nov 2013, 13:40

He's a decent bowler with a good heart.

He also uses BOUNCE, which Swann has singularly and dull-wittedly failed to do so far.

It's why England cry out for a leggie in Aus. (I mentioned this above.) Four out of five Aussie Test grounds tend to favour a smart use of bounce, which is the promised land for (good) wrist spinners. Lyon is a finger spinner with some intelligent use of this prime leggie asset.

"ENGLAND - LEGGIELESS IN OZA"

by G.Wood Mon 25 Nov 2013, 21:37

JGK wrote:On Inside Cricket tonight, Lyon mentioned how supportive Clarke is and how much he's enjoying having Haddin behind the stumps.

That's a damning comment against Sharapova

by skully Mon 25 Nov 2013, 21:44

Elmer was correctly picked a few years back as the best we had for the future. He hasn't really let us down. He just needs to make the next step to the man who regularly bowls us to wins in the final innings of a Test.

I think Boof erred by leaving him out of the 1st 2 Tests in Ashes 2013, but I guess Boof was trying to find his feet in his brand new role.

I have high hopes that Elmer will become Aus's statistically best ever finger spinner (currently Hugh Trumble with 141 Test wickets) and is a reasonable show of giving 200 Test wickets a nudge (currently has 91).

by JGK Mon 25 Nov 2013, 22:10

skully wrote:Elmer was correctly picked a few years back as the best we had for the future. He hasn't really let us down. He just needs to make the next step to the man who regularly bowls us to wins in the final innings of a Test.

I think Boof erred by leaving him out of the 1st 2 Tests in Ashes 2013, but I guess Boof was trying to find his feet in his brand new role.

I have high hopes that Elmer will become Aus's statistically best ever finger spinner (currently Hugh Trumble with 141 Test wickets) and is a reasonable show of giving 200 Test wickets a nudge (currently has 91).

It was Rod Marsh that left Elmer out for Agar.

by skully Mon 25 Nov 2013, 22:24

Ah, cheers MrK.

by horace Mon 25 Nov 2013, 23:10

he's an honest straight armed trundler...will struggle in Adelaide where he will be bowling on a pudding...in pretty decent form at the mo

by skully Mon 25 Nov 2013, 23:16

I reckon there'll be 8 or 9 bowlers who'll struggle in Adelaide. It's been roadier than an Adelaide road-built road that's usually built like a road this season.

by PeterCS Mon 25 Nov 2013, 23:30

So ... Poms might get to 320?

by Brass Monkey Tue 26 Nov 2013, 00:17

PeterCS wrote:So ... Poms might get to 320?

280 first dig. That can be on day 1 or day 3.

by skully Tue 26 Nov 2013, 00:25

PeterCS wrote:So ... Poms might get to 320?

I'd be surprised if that score is not challenged in all 4 innings.

by Nath Tue 26 Nov 2013, 07:11

still room for improvement (bowling in 4th inngs), but deserves better treatment than what the selectors gave him in recent times

by lardbucket Fri 12 Dec 2014, 02:07

He is fast closing in on Yardley (126), Mallett (132) and Trumble (141) despite the scorn of selectors and horrie.

He bowled very well yesterday to the best players of spin in the world. He seems to have abandoned earlier advice (Muralitharan's ... or perhaps it was someone else that advised him to bowl flatter and faster in the UAE) and gone back to doing what he does best: relying on line, length, dip, and bounce.

by WideWally Fri 12 Dec 2014, 02:15

Yep. I don't know why folk keep calling for him to be dropped. Sure he has had some disappointing games but overall he has clearly been our best spinner since Warne retired.

by lardbucket Fri 12 Dec 2014, 02:33

I think we all forget at times how often both Mallett and Yardley were in and out of the side ... there's an assumption that both had mortgages on their place in the side during the period that they were at their peak.

Mallett was constantly in and out of the Australian side, with Gleeson an early obstacle, and O'Keeffe and Jenner competing strongly with him later on. They all had topsy-turvy careers.

Yardley was also treated shabbily by the selectors on a few occasions, most notably IIRC when it came to selecting a side to tour England in 1981.

The Agar-for-Lyon experiment in mid-2013 is similar to some of the selection vagaries experienced by earlier Australian spinners not called Warne, and even Shane was omitted a couple of times ...

by tricycle Fri 12 Dec 2014, 14:58

lardbucket wrote:He is fast closing in on Yardley (126), Mallett (132) and Trumble (141) despite the scorn of selectors and horrie.

He bowled very well yesterday to the best players of spin in the world. He seems to have abandoned earlier advice (Muralitharan's ... or perhaps it was someone else that advised him to bowl flatter and faster in the UAE) and gone back to doing what he does best: relying on line, length, dip, and bounce.

All credit to Lyon, but that's more and more a myth based on past reputation these days. India's batsmen pretty average players of spin.

by LeFromage Fri 12 Dec 2014, 16:52

Moeen Ali pulled their pants down and laughed at their junk during the summer, with mostly non-turning off-spin.

And, of course, Monty and Swanny bowled England to a series win in India 18 months or so ago.

This generation of batsmen aren't a patch on the previous lot in terms of playing slow bowling. That may well be the case for batsmen in general across all countries.

by beamer Fri 12 Dec 2014, 17:35

Yeah, and there's barely a top-notch spinner in world cricket, especially if you exclude Chuckmal - Herath is the only one currently ranked top 10, he averages 29. Warne and Murali would make mincemeat of the current generation of batsmen. As would the pacemen of a decade or two ago against the pitiful collection of openers that populate the Test sides right now.

We've seen lots of legends retire in recent years, and very few new ones are emerging. The legacy of T20 on the traditional game?

by Merlin Fri 12 Dec 2014, 17:55

tricycle wrote:
lardbucket wrote:He is fast closing in on Yardley (126), Mallett (132) and Trumble (141) despite the scorn of selectors and horrie.

He bowled very well yesterday to the best players of spin in the world. He seems to have abandoned earlier advice (Muralitharan's ... or perhaps it was someone else that advised him to bowl flatter and faster in the UAE) and gone back to doing what he does best: relying on line, length, dip, and bounce.
All credit to Lyon, but that's more and more a myth based on past reputation these days. India's batsmen pretty average players of spin.

Errrr .... yeah .... but ...
...credit should also be given to the footmarks into which Lyon pitched the ball to make it rip and spit.
Not many of ( even world class batsmen ) could cope with that kinda bowling out of the rough.

Not saying he's crap ... but hey, he isn't a world beater ... just a good bowler using the conditions.

by taipan Fri 12 Dec 2014, 18:30

beamer wrote:Yeah, and there's barely a top-notch spinner in world cricket, especially if you exclude Chuckmal - Herath is the only one currently ranked top 10, he averages 29. Warne and Murali would make mincemeat of the current generation of batsmen. As would the pacemen of a decade or two ago against the pitiful collection of openers that populate the Test sides right now.

We've seen lots of legends retire in recent years, and very few new ones are emerging. The legacy of T20 on the traditional game?

Is it really the legacy of T20? I would argue that T20 hurts the bowlers more than batsmen. But then I would argue that T50 is exactly the same. Both limited versions are batsman friendly with the fielding restrictions and the limitations on the number of overs each bowler can bowl. Is it fair that a batsman can carry his bat and the bowler is restricted? I would also suggest that T20 has hurt India more than most.

Modern legends? Interesting. I think that once again it is easier for batsmen. The prospective modern legends in general perform across all three formats and maybe that should be the benchmark. Showing a bit of bias, AB and Hash spring to mind and maybe we have to start looking at Warmer as well. He is racking up the stats. Other prospects such as Clarke, Cook and Shiv battle a bit in the shorter formats. As far as bowling goes Steyn is a deadset legend. Midge a bit too inconsistent and who else is there? The spinners are dross as already mentioned.

What really hurts me is the dearth of genuine allrounders. I cannot think of one worthy of the name in the modern game.

by LeFromage Fri 12 Dec 2014, 18:33

taipan wrote:
What really hurts me is the dearth of genuine allrounders. I cannot think of one worthy of the name in the modern game.

Ben Stokes' mum wrote:You take that back! Take it back!

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