Re: So, thoughts on Nathan Lyon

by taipan Fri 12 Dec 2014, 18:40

taipan wrote:
beamer wrote:Yeah, and there's barely a top-notch spinner in world cricket, especially if you exclude Chuckmal - Herath is the only one currently ranked top 10, he averages 29. Warne and Murali would make mincemeat of the current generation of batsmen. As would the pacemen of a decade or two ago against the pitiful collection of openers that populate the Test sides right now.

We've seen lots of legends retire in recent years, and very few new ones are emerging. The legacy of T20 on the traditional game?

Is it really the legacy of T20? I would argue that T20 hurts the bowlers more than batsmen. But then I would argue that T50 is exactly the same. Both limited versions are batsman friendly with the fielding restrictions and the limitations on the number of overs each bowler can bowl. Is it fair that a batsman can carry his bat and the bowler is restricted? I would also suggest that T20 has hurt India more than most.

Modern legends? Interesting. I think that once again it is easier for batsmen. The prospective modern legends in general perform across all three formats and maybe that should be the benchmark. Showing a bit of bias, AB and Hash spring to mind and maybe we have to start looking at Warmer as well. He is racking up the stats. Other prospects such as Clarke, Cook and Shiv battle a bit in the shorter formats. As far as bowling goes Steyn is a deadset legend. Midge a bit too inconsistent and who else is there? The spinners are dross as already mentioned.

What really hurts me is the dearth of genuine allrounders. I cannot think of one worthy of the name in the modern game.

Just realised I forgot KP.

by tricycle Sat 13 Dec 2014, 03:36

I wouldn't call Pietersen a legend tbh. Nor Warner, though he is looking more and more a modern great.

Sangakarra definitely deserves to be there though, best of the lot imo, and even Jayawardene.

by beamer Sat 13 Dec 2014, 11:18

Anyway, Lyon... second best spinner in Test cricket right now? Shocked

by beamer Sat 13 Dec 2014, 13:16

taipan wrote:
beamer wrote:Yeah, and there's barely a top-notch spinner in world cricket, especially if you exclude Chuckmal - Herath is the only one currently ranked top 10, he averages 29. Warne and Murali would make mincemeat of the current generation of batsmen. As would the pacemen of a decade or two ago against the pitiful collection of openers that populate the Test sides right now.

We've seen lots of legends retire in recent years, and very few new ones are emerging. The legacy of T20 on the traditional game?

Is it really the legacy of T20? I would argue that T20 hurts the bowlers more than batsmen. But then I would argue that T50 is exactly the same. Both limited versions are batsman friendly with the fielding restrictions and the limitations on the number of overs each bowler can bowl. Is it fair that a batsman can carry his bat and the bowler is restricted? I would also suggest that T20 has hurt India more than most.

Modern legends? Interesting. I think that once again it is easier for batsmen. The prospective modern legends in general perform across all three formats and maybe that should be the benchmark. Showing a bit of bias, AB and Hash spring to mind and maybe we have to start looking at Warmer as well. He is racking up the stats. Other prospects such as Clarke, Cook and Shiv battle a bit in the shorter formats. As far as bowling goes Steyn is a deadset legend. Midge a bit too inconsistent and who else is there? The spinners are dross as already mentioned.

What really hurts me is the dearth of genuine allrounders. I cannot think of one worthy of the name in the modern game.

Most of the modern greats of batting hide away at 4, 5 and 6, rather than standing up to be counted at the top of the order where there's a lot of mediocrity sent in ahead of them. Most teams have little in the way of spin and a fairly weak third seamer so there's easy pickings batting down the order. I'd like to see what some of them would average in the top three, for those who rarely or never actually bat there.

by taipan Sun 14 Dec 2014, 04:08

beamer wrote:
taipan wrote:
beamer wrote:Yeah, and there's barely a top-notch spinner in world cricket, especially if you exclude Chuckmal - Herath is the only one currently ranked top 10, he averages 29. Warne and Murali would make mincemeat of the current generation of batsmen. As would the pacemen of a decade or two ago against the pitiful collection of openers that populate the Test sides right now.

We've seen lots of legends retire in recent years, and very few new ones are emerging. The legacy of T20 on the traditional game?

Is it really the legacy of T20? I would argue that T20 hurts the bowlers more than batsmen. But then I would argue that T50 is exactly the same. Both limited versions are batsman friendly with the fielding restrictions and the limitations on the number of overs each bowler can bowl. Is it fair that a batsman can carry his bat and the bowler is restricted? I would also suggest that T20 has hurt India more than most.

Modern legends? Interesting. I think that once again it is easier for batsmen. The prospective modern legends in general perform across all three formats and maybe that should be the benchmark. Showing a bit of bias, AB and Hash spring to mind and maybe we have to start looking at Warmer as well. He is racking up the stats. Other prospects such as Clarke, Cook and Shiv battle a bit in the shorter formats. As far as bowling goes Steyn is a deadset legend. Midge a bit too inconsistent and who else is there? The spinners are dross as already mentioned.

What really hurts me is the dearth of genuine allrounders. I cannot think of one worthy of the name in the modern game.

Most of the modern greats of batting hide away at 4, 5 and 6, rather than standing up to be counted at the top of the order where there's a lot of mediocrity sent in ahead of them. Most teams have little in the way of spin and a fairly weak third seamer so there's easy pickings batting down the order. I'd like to see what some of them would average in the top three, for those who rarely or never actually bat there.

I would say that batting at 4 is hardly hiding away but on the up side that takes SRT out of the legend class.

by Fred Nerk Sun 14 Dec 2014, 04:10

well tfft

by lardbucket Fri 19 Dec 2014, 04:07

seems to be able to bat a bit too ... not the worst 10-11 we've had

by lardbucket Mon 04 Sep 2017, 08:15

LeFromage wrote:
taipan wrote:
What really hurts me is the dearth of genuine allrounders. I cannot think of one worthy of the name in the modern game.

Ben Stokes' mum wrote:You take that back! Take it back!

Do we know for certain that Dello is still alive, that's he's not rotting in an urban backwater somewhere with knitting needles sticking out of his back and eyeballs?

by PeterCS Mon 04 Sep 2017, 10:38

Never mind that - Lyon's roaring.

by skully Mon 04 Sep 2017, 12:28

skully wrote:I have high hopes that Elmer will become Aus's statistically best ever finger spinner (currently Hugh Trumble with 141 Test wickets) and is a reasonable show of giving 200 Test wickets a nudge (currently has 91).

I undershot considerably with my high hopes.

Elmer now on 261 Test wickets and at 29 has plenty of scope for many more.

by Henry Tue 05 Sep 2017, 00:18

He's probably one of the most underrated Australian cricketers of all time. However he does have a tendency to go missing when the team really needs him to step up.

by horace Tue 05 Sep 2017, 00:29

Henry wrote:He's probably one of the most underrated Australian cricketers of all time. However he does have a tendency to go missing when the team really needs him to step up.

I have underrated him and the number of wickets and still counting speak of his competence.

Still doubts remain both about his record in Pomgolia and in some crucial 4th innings when he has failed.

Finger spinners (at least those that don't ping it) are up against it. Some like Ashtray and Chinhead unduly relied on pitches being dialled in for their records.

by skully Tue 05 Sep 2017, 01:31

Elmer said overnight that he learned a helluva lot by studying Ashtray's methods i.e. tight, tight, tight and frustrate batsmen out. He employed this technique yesty. Hardly a ball turned.

by lardbucket Sun 25 Aug 2019, 13:55

Mallett and Lillee long in the wake now, and past Lillee.

It is conceivable that he will pass McGrath, barring injury.

by beamer Sun 25 Aug 2019, 18:54

Not unless he improves his fielding Wink

by Dello Sun 25 Aug 2019, 19:01

LeFromage wrote:

Lyon's certainly better than Ashton Agar, though.

Top scouting, me.

by Dello Sun 25 Aug 2019, 19:01

LeFromage wrote:
taipan wrote:
What really hurts me is the dearth of genuine allrounders. I cannot think of one worthy of the name in the modern game.

Ben Stokes' mum wrote:You take that back! Take it back!

I'm on fire in this thread.

by Basil Mon 26 Aug 2019, 10:33

Stokes looks like he's worked Lyon out. He played him almost exclusively off the back foot at Lord's when the ball was turning, but played him off the front foot at Leeds where the ball was not doing so much. He also put his sweep under lock and key until the final assault yesterday.

by Red Mon 26 Aug 2019, 11:23

Some say he's the GOAT, but there have been a number of times when he hasn't come to the party in the fourth innings of a test match.

by beamer Mon 26 Aug 2019, 11:32

Well, maybe if you don’t have a mystery ball you’re always going to have that ceiling to your potential. The fact he’s taking his wickets at 32 apiece perhaps backs that up.

by skully Mon 26 Aug 2019, 23:28

I see there's been handbags at 10 paces between Matt Prior and Warnie (then numerous others shot back at TGM) over a rather harmless sledge by the former at Nathan Lyon.

LOL at former cricketers arguing on Twitter.

by beamer Tue 27 Aug 2019, 07:41

The Big Cheese still stirring it up? Maybe we should employ him as sledging coach...

by lardbucket Fri 15 Jan 2021, 14:31

100 Tests now, and closing in on 400 wickets.

by beamer Fri 15 Jan 2021, 14:55

Where does he rank among Aussie Test spinners? Surely top five?

by horace Fri 15 Jan 2021, 20:52

beamer wrote:Where does he rank among Aussie Test spinners? Surely top five?

Hard to judge. Weight of wickets would suggest yes. However he has failed too often on the fifth day to drive home our advantage. Sure T.3 is fresh in my mind and yes the SCG provided an autobahn, however he was clearly outbowled by the Indian spinners.

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