England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

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England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Basil on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 21:36

Ballance is out of England's side with a broken finger.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by PeterCS on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 22:00

I thought you were going to say "... with a broken technique".

(Sorry, Gary.)
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Basil on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 22:06

I think that's it for Ballance, he doesn't appear to have learned that his technique will not cut it at the highest level.

Who replaces him though? Root up the order to three would be my guess with someone coming in at four. It's a pity that there isn't a round of championship matches to give the potential replacements a run-out between the tests.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Big Dog on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 22:48

CrocInfo is talking up Mark Stoneman as a replacement but i would have thought 30 was a bit long in the tooth to be making a test debut.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Basil on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 22:52

Big Dog wrote:CrocInfo is talking up Mark Stoneman as a replacement but i would have thought 30 was a bit long in the tooth to be making a test debut.

I'm not bothered to be honest. Some of the younger players we have tried recently - Vince and Duckett to name but two have been found wanting. Someone like Stoneman who's been round the block a few times might be a better bet. Likewise Malan as suggested by Pete on the 2nd test thread.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by PeterCS on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 22:53

Very true about the lacuna of CC matches.

Root much prefers 4 - I won't go as far as to say that explains his insistence on restoring his county captain (if his insistence it was), that was surely just another aberration of wishful thinking, as with Trott's restoration, and perhaps Finn's restoration.

The experiment of drafting in a new opener at 3 has not gone too badly on a couple of occasions - of course it depends what calibre and character of opener, under what circs - and unless they decide to drop Jennings too, which is surely 95+% unlikely, maybe they would consider Stoneman? (RBurns? Browne?) at first wicket down.

Particularly since, cynics might say, all too often of late #3 has been more or less an opener anyway.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by PeterCS on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 22:58

Big Dog wrote:CrocInfo is talking up Mark Stoneman as a replacement but i would have thought 30 was a bit long in the tooth to be making a test debut.

As others have noted previously - Monkey for example - Stoneman was the nearly-man among openers in the CC for a few seasons. Looked good, but too often got out before getting going. Average marooned in mid-to-late 30s.

At the end of last season, he made the momentous decision - along with Borthwick, who's not really come on - to move way down south from Geordieland to the Oval. A decision most of us here would deplore, if only for tribal reasons (the Browncaps having that reputation) ... except his batting has strikingly come on. Whether truer pitches, better pay (?) or what, I have no idea. But he's a late finisher.

Hence the murmuring.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by PeterCS on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 23:02

Basil wrote:
Big Dog wrote:CrocInfo is talking up Mark Stoneman as a replacement but i would have thought 30 was a bit long in the tooth to be making a test debut.

I'm not bothered to be honest. Some of the younger players we have tried recently - Vince and Duckett to name but two have been found wanting. Someone like Stoneman who's been round the block a few times might be a better bet. Likewise Malan as suggested by Pete on the 2nd test thread.

Duckett's been going through some grim form. Maybe his race is not run.

Malan yes - not sure if #3 is the ideal spot for him to start, though. Is cut out for #5 (or #6) role I think, rising in the order if he comes off, and depending on team's needs. But hey - who knows?
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Big Dog on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 23:05

PeterCS wrote:
Big Dog wrote:CrocInfo is talking up Mark Stoneman as a replacement but i would have thought 30 was a bit long in the tooth to be making a test debut.

As others have noted previously - Monkey for example - Stoneman was the nearly-man among openers in the CC for a few seasons. Looked good, but too often got out before getting going. Average marooned in mid-to-late 30s.

At the end of last season, he made the momentous decision - along with Borthwick, who's not really come on - to move way down south from Geordieland to the Oval. A decision most of us here would deplore, if only for tribal reasons (the Browncaps having that reputation) ... except his batting has strikingly come on. Whether truer pitches, better pay (?) or what, I have no idea. But he's a late finisher.

Hence the murmuring.

Two half tons for Eng Lions would have helped i suspect.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by horace on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 23:18

Big Dog wrote:
PeterCS wrote:
Big Dog wrote:CrocInfo is talking up Mark Stoneman as a replacement but i would have thought 30 was a bit long in the tooth to be making a test debut.

As others have noted previously - Monkey for example - Stoneman was the nearly-man among openers in the CC for a few seasons. Looked good, but too often got out before getting going. Average marooned in mid-to-late 30s.

At the end of last season, he made the momentous decision - along with Borthwick, who's not really come on - to move way down south from Geordieland to the Oval. A decision most of us here would deplore, if only for tribal reasons (the Browncaps having that reputation) ... except his batting has strikingly come on. Whether truer pitches, better pay (?) or what, I have no idea. But he's a late finisher.

Hence the murmuring.

Two half tons for Eng Lions would have helped i suspect.

But then Ballance was the only Brit Lion to perform all those years ago on the Lions ill fated tour of Oz

I Ron Bell he is not, but he could well be Pomgolian cricket's flat footed future in the age of BREXKT.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Henry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 23:40

There seems to be this set in stone pecking order for the England team that doesn't allow for out of the box, based on a hunch selections. Trescothick, Vaughan, Simon Jones, and Strauss were all pretty much picked on hunches.

These days the selectors just seem to pick based on County Championship stats.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by skully on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 23:50

Am I wrong in assuming that the County scene is completely devoid of a prodigy type in the mould of Chef and Neph?

Prodigious scorers like Ballance just can't cut it at the next level. It possibly makes England's immediate future as a Test cricket superpower doubtful, given the batting fragility.

Of course, the same thing can be said about Australia. The days of Aus batting line-ups like MtFTB, NLWL, Drunky, MEW, SRW, Marto, Gilly, are long gone.

Long reign the Bannies.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Henry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 23:56

skully wrote:Am I wrong in assuming that the County scene is completely devoid of a prodigy type in the mould of Chef and Neph?

Prodigious scorers like Ballance just can't cut it at the next level. It possibly makes England's immediate future as a Test cricket superpower doubtful, given the batting fragility.

Of course, the same thing can be said about Australia. The days of Aus batting line-ups like MtFTB, NLWL, Drunky, MEW, SRW, Marto, Gilly, are long gone.

Long reign the Bannies.

Haseeb Hameed is of that ilk. He's got a 'chosen one' aura about him.  Who knows, maybe England should have ignored his terrible County form and picked him for this series regardless. Form is temporary etc......

Honestly, I never rated Ballance from the moment I first saw him in the Sydney test of the 2013-14 Ashes. No doubt he has 'grit' and is a good bloke, but that doesn't compensate for massive technical flaws. Flaws that he is apparently unable or unwilling to address.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Basil on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 00:01

There are some talented young players to be sure, but they are way short of being anything like the finished article - they appear to be more interested in practicing reverse ramps than working out a solid defensive technique against swing bowling.

Likewise, young fast bowlers know all about knuckle balls and yorkers that land on the popping crease 12 inches wide of the stumps - but ask them to turn in eight or nine overs on the bounce with decent line and length at a reasonable pace and they can't do it.

And don't get me started on spin bowlers.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by skully on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 00:02

Cheers Trev
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by horace on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 00:35

Phurt@Skully.... The anointed one syndrome has long infected Oz cricket....Reeks ffs, Bog and Mere, QDenial, et al are recent examples of selections made against the evidence.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Henry on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 01:11

The truly great players tend to be identified very early on, with a few notable exceptions- Warne, McGrath, Younis Khan.....
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Henry on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 01:14

But right now, I'm a bit shocked how Root seems to be England's best batsman by clearly such a wide margin. No one else comes close at the moment.

At Trent Bridge it reminded me of Lara batting for an ailing Windies team in the early 00s when Root was out there stroking it to all parts whilst wickets were tumbling at the other end. Worrying times.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Growler on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 01:27

Unless we're going to pick a specialist opener (which I doubt) then in the circumstances, Joe Root should be told in no uncertain terms to take responsibility as skipper, and bat at 3 for the next couple of games. He has both the technique, and more importantly, the test experience to do the job.

Any debutant will have enough to think about coming in at 4 or 5 (even if the score is only 100 or so) - he really doesn't need to be facing Morkel and Big Vern just loosened up in the 5th over with even fewer runs on the board.

I'm in agreement with Trev that CC stats aren't the be-all and end-all when it comes to selection, and there's nothing wrong with going with a gut feeling ...... but as I said on the 2nd test thread, choose the match to pick a debutant. SA now, or WI in a month? Honestly, it's a no brainer - it's not "giving out a soft cap", it's giving a new batsman a fighting chance to show what he's made of.

Edit - my last paragraph of course is a matter of principle only. With Balance out, we've little choice for this match.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by skully on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 01:34

horace wrote:Phurt@Skully.... The anointed one syndrome has long infected Oz cricket....Reeks ffs, Bog and Mere, QDenial, et al are recent examples of selections made against the evidence.

Absolutely no argument from me, h. You are well aware of my despair at the numbskulledness of our NSP.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by skully on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 01:35

Henry wrote:But right now, I'm a bit shocked how Root seems to be England's best batsman by clearly such a wide margin. No one else comes close at the moment.

At Trent Bridge it reminded me of Lara batting for an ailing Windies team in the early 00s when Root was out there stroking it to all parts whilst wickets were tumbling at the other end. Worrying times.

A fair call, Trev. Even the once unbowlable Chef is a mere shadow of his former greatness.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Nath on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 09:38

thanks South Africa. Now our dickhead media is demanding we play 4 quicks in the Ashes. (assuming the pay dispute is resolved)
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by skully on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 11:02

The dickhead media will not result in Elmer the GOAT being relegated to Gatorade duty.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by Henry on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 11:57

FWIW, this would be my England team for this match-

1. Cook
2. Stoneman
3. Westley
4. Root (c)
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Malan
8. Moeen
9. Roland-Jones
10. Broad
11. Anderson

Yes, quite a few changes. Some because of form, some because of injury, some because of both.
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

Post by taipan on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 12:09

SA.

Markram for Kuhn
Radaba for Olivier
Faf to bat 4
QdK to bat 6
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Re: England v South Africa, 3rd Test, The Oval, 27-31 July, 2017

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