All Time Greats Top 10 batsmen of all teams?

Gary 111 wrote:

JGK wrote:Good list Gary - not sure that Thorpe belongs in that company though, particularly ahead of the likes of Woolley, Hendren, Ranji, Dexter, Graveney or either Edrich.

Thanks JGK, I tried to have a fair reflection of players from different eras - Thorpe never had to bat on uncovered wickets, but Woolley and Hendren never faced bowlers as fierce as Walsh and Ambrose with success or scored match-winning centuries against Murali in 35 degree+ conditions.

I think its fair to say none of those players were regarded as being the best of their era. Hobbs and Sutcliffe were comfortably above Woolley and Hendren. Dexter and Graveney weren't as classically talented as Peter May or as successful as Kenny Barrington, and Geoff Boycott was a better batsman than John Edrich.

The one exception is I didn't have a 'Golden age' batsman, so maybe I should add Ranji to the list.

Fair enough. Although Woolley and Hendren both played against the Gregory/ McDonald back to back series onslaught in 20/21. Admittedly, they mostly struggled although Woolley did manage to average over 40 in the home series. Hobbs of course incredible in averaging over 50 in a 5-0 loss in the Aust series (including making double figures every innings).

Top 20 Snoozer Test run scorers with averages:

SP Fleming 7172 40.06
MD Crowe 5444 45.36
JG Wright 5334 37.82
NJ Astle 4702 37.02
DL Vettori 4048 29.98
BE Congdon 3448 32.22
JR Reid 3428 33.28
BB McCullum 3323 37.33
CL Cairns 3320 33.53
Sir RJ Hadlee 3124 27.16
CD McMillan 3116 38.46
GM Turner 2991 44.64
AH Jones 2922 44.27
AC Parore 2865 26.28
MH Richardson 2776 44.77
B Sutcliffe 2727 40.1
MG Burgess 2684 31.2
JV Coney 2668 37.57
GP Howarth 2531 32.44
KR Rutherford 2465 27.08

Most of them not too special, fair enough... still, as a rugby-dominated country of 4 million people they probably do well to be as competitive as they are.

New Zealand I would have:

Jeremy Coney
Martin Crowe
Stewie Dempster
Martin Donnelly
Stephen Fleming
Andrew Jones
Mark Richardson
Bert Sutcliffe
Glenn Turner
John Wright

I would actually be tempted to put Chris Cairns in there, maybe for Coney actually, considering how many dour blockers New Zealand have. Very few of those could take a game away from you, and Cairns could on his day (though they didn't come around as often as he would have liked).

So could/can Astle and McCullum though, and they have better averages. Not questioning Cairns as an all-round cricketer though, with better injury luck he would have been one of the truly great all-rounders.

Astle might get there on the basis of that one innings!

Batman wrote:

JGK wrote: Huh? South Africa have been playing tests since the late 1800s - well before India and the West Indies.

Think of names like Pollock, Faulkner, Nourse, Bland, Mitchell, Rowan and Barlow.

Thanks for the suggestion. I was lost for a choice as I have no idea of their history that far back

So how did you manage to pick Richards who played in the same team as Barlow and Pollock?

I am aware of Barry Richards as one of the truly greats whose career was cut short due to the apartheid era's cricket ban. Probably more lucky to have played those 4 tests than India's best spinner [Padamakar Shivalkar] never to play a test ever. I have been aware of Pollock Sr. and Richards especially. People who lost their prime years to the era of ban. It's a shame.

What about Keppler Wessels? Does he qualify?

I was also wondering about Pakistan's Qasim Omar. What went wrong with him?

Batman wrote:
What about Keppler Wessels? Does he qualify?

No, he wasn't that good.

Sorry, but having Botham in England's list is ludicrious Vikas.

vilkrang wrote:Sorry, but having Botham in England's list is ludicrious Vikas.

Well he did have Boucher in the SA line up.

Only for the initial lack of options I felt. Thats why it is an open debate for others to recommend as well.

England-

Hobbs
Hammond
Sutcliffe
Barrington
Hutton
Compton
Gower
Boycott
Pietersen
Cook

The former players just about pick themselves. I chose Pietersen because of his talent and the way he can be so destructive on his day, even if he hasn't been all that consistent of late. When all is said and done he'll end up playing around 120 tests with an average between 47 and 50.

I picked Cook ahead of the likes of Gooch and Thorpe because he's actually done a huge amount to contribute to an ashes series win. And he didn't just chip in with 400 runs at an average of 50. He absolutely pummeled them for over 700 runs at an average of 120. His pick is also based slightly on what he will still achieve in the future, as he'll probably be the all time leading England run scorer in 5 year's time. And he'll still only be 31 when he achieves that.

Ask me again in a couple of years and Ian Bell might be on the list as well.

Henry wrote:England-

Hobbs
Hammond
Sutcliffe
Barrington
Hutton
Compton
Gower
Boycott
Pietersen
Cook

The former players just about pick themselves. I chose Pietersen because of his talent and the way he can be so destructive on his day, even if he hasn't been all that consistent of late. When all is said and done he'll end up playing around 120 tests with an average between 47 and 50.

I picked Cook ahead of the likes of Gooch and Thorpe because he's actually done a huge amount to contribute to an ashes series win. And he didn't just chip in with 400 runs at an average of 50. He absolutely pummeled them for over 700 runs at an average of 120. His pick is also based slightly on what he will still achieve in the future, as he'll probably be the all time leading England run scorer in 5 year's time. And he'll still only be 31 when he achieves that.

Ask me again in a couple of years and Ian Bell might be on the list as well.

Re: Cook - that's fair enough, but I think it depends on the players around you as well. Eg, Vaughan was similarly good as Cook 8 years ago - but if you haven't got the bowlers to take 20 wickets you're still not going to win. Plus the bowlers help create scoreboard pressure - When Vaughan made his big hundred at Adelaide they got him out in the last over of the day, and they knew at 300/4 they'd still have England all out cheaply the next day. Once England got ahead in this series, often having already bowled Australia out cheaply then the bowlers just wilted. If Cook had been born 8 years earlier and been in great form, even when he passed 100 the bowlers would still be throwing everything at him (not to mention it would be McGrath, Gillespie & Warne!).

The series in which Thorpe played i'm not sure they had the bowlers to challenge Oz, maybe 1997 and the two after (which he largely missed through injury and personal problems).

Fark off - No way Cook should be in ahead of Gooch.

And where is May?

West Indies

Lara
Sobers
Headley
V Richards
Weekes
Greenidge
Kanhai
Hunte

The last two spots can be any from Lloyd, Walcott, Kallicharran and Worrell

Surely Chanders has to be in there somewhere all things considered?

Cook has to be judged at the end of his career - he could end up averaging 40 or over 50. Vaughan's remarkable effort 8 years ago was equally viewed as the arrival of an English batting great, as it turned out with injuries, captaincy etc. he never recaptured the same sort of form with the bat.

Even during that 2002/03 Ashes series, Vaughan's knee was on the verge of being permanently f*cked. He only declared himself fit for the Adelaide test as Nasser was about to walk out for the toss.

Cook has no injury concerns whatsoever from what I can tell, and he wont be made full time captain for at least another two years.

So the guy who was almost dropped before the tour gets into the all time top 10?

Based on a series of 700 runs against trundlers like Hilf. Come on, even Cook's mother would be hesitant to say he is a great.

Who has he faced and succeeded against that compares to what Gooch faced and achieved?

Henry wrote:Even during that 2002/03 Ashes series, Vaughan's knee was on the verge of being permanently f*cked. He only declared himself fit for the Adelaide test as Nasser was about to walk out for the toss.

Cook has no injury concerns whatsoever from what I can tell, and he wont be made full time captain for at least another two years.

But it doesn't mean he won't lose his form. There were days earlier this year against Pakistan where his technique looked awful.

At this stage Strauss has a better record, and I think he has two paces to his batting which means he can hurt the oppo more. Plus he has his own 'Man of the Series' award in an Ashes victory and a Winter where everything flew off the middle of his bat (2004/05).

Agree that Cook, all things being equal, will go on to eclipse this. But I too would have said the same about Vaughan in 2003. The way he batted that Winter was incredible, even better than Cook did this series in my opinion.

Yeah perhaps. Cook has the hunger for runs that Vaughan never had, though. After Vaughan got his century, it was usually shot a ball stuff. Cook gets out for 189 and he's still cursing.

Henry wrote:Yeah perhaps. Cook has the hunger for runs that Vaughan never had, though. After Vaughan got his century, it was usually shot a ball stuff. Cook gets out for 189 and he's still cursing.

He certainly had the hunger in 2002. Plus, it does take Cook 2 full days to get to 150+ sometimes....

Vaughan's remarkable run of form actually started the previous summer with a couple of 190's against India. He hit 1481 runs @ 61.70 including 6 centuries in the calendar year of 2002. But I guess it was the style with which he batted that perhaps set him apart from other England players who have had a spectacular year of form.

A couple of bizarre stats from looking at Vaughan's career record: he averaged 55 in draws but only 38 in wins, and also averaged almost 69 in 4th Tests of a series but only 28 in 3rd Tests!

Henry wrote:Yeah perhaps. Cook has the hunger for runs that Vaughan never had, though. After Vaughan got his century, it was usually shot a ball stuff. Cook gets out for 189 and he's still cursing.

Took him 43 matches to pass 127. Before this series he'd still only passed that score twice, once against Bangladesh and once against West Indies. IMO he's nowhere near top 10 England batsmen. Like Paul said, he needs to score runs against better bowlers.