Where does Gooch rank among England's greatest openers?

England's most prolific openers (runs and average, only when opening):

G Boycott 8091 48.16
GA Gooch 7811 43.88
MA Atherton 7476 39.14
L Hutton 6721 56.47
AJ Strauss 6656 41.60
ME Trescothick 5824 43.78
AN Cook 5782 48.18
JB Hobbs 5130 56.37
H Sutcliffe 4522 61.10
JH Edrich 3430 44.54
AJ Stewart 3348 44.64
DL Amiss 3276 53.70
MP Vaughan 3093 45.48

taipan wrote:

PlanetPakistan wrote:England is one team that hasn't produced a world class cricketer like Sachin, Wasim,Ambrose or Sami for at least 3 decades now.
Gooch has to be one of the top 5 English cricketers since 1977(Botham's debut).

The worst attempted wind up of all time. (with apologies to horrie)

Its quite clear that England haven't produced a world class player in decades, even ZIM's Andy Flower is perhaps ahead of any cricketer to have made his debut for ENG after Botham.

That being said one has to give them credit for being the # 1 team these days despite no mega stars.

beamer wrote:England's most prolific openers (runs and average, only when opening):

G Boycott 8091 48.16
GA Gooch 7811 43.88
MA Atherton 7476 39.14
L Hutton 6721 56.47
AJ Strauss 6656 41.60
ME Trescothick 5824 43.78
AN Cook 5782 48.18
JB Hobbs 5130 56.37
H Sutcliffe 4522 61.10
JH Edrich 3430 44.54
AJ Stewart 3348 44.64
DL Amiss 3276 53.70
MP Vaughan 3093 45.48

If i am not mistaken Cook is one of Gooch's students and he is probably the finest opener since the days of Boycott

PlanetPakistan wrote:

taipan wrote:

PlanetPakistan wrote:England is one team that hasn't produced a world class cricketer like Sachin, Wasim,Ambrose or Sami for at least 3 decades now.
Gooch has to be one of the top 5 English cricketers since 1977(Botham's debut).

The worst attempted wind up of all time. (with apologies to horrie)

Its quite clear that England haven't produced a world class player in decades, even ZIM's Andy Flower is perhaps ahead of any cricketer to have made his debut for ENG after Botham.

That being said one has to give them credit for being the # 1 team these days despite no mega stars.

Of course England have an advantage in that their non mega stars have managed to avoid gaol.

JGK wrote:Those certainly ahead of Gooch:

Hobbs
Hutton
Sutcliffe
Boycott (I guess)

Those about the same:

Edrich
Washbrook (maybe)

I would put Gooch ahead of Boycott purely bcause of Boycott's inabilty to dominate an attack, whiseeto get more pronounced the longer his career went on.

Best players to make their debut for England in past 30 years - Robin Smith, Alec Stewart, Freddie, Jimmy, KP, Swann & Cook. Tresco despite his mental problems cutting his career short deserves to be included too.

Allan D wrote:Best players to make their debut for England in past 30 years - Robin Smith, Alec Stewart, Freddie, Jimmy, KP, Swann & Cook. Tresco despite his mental problems cutting his career short deserves to be included too.

You might want to add David Gower to that list.

Allan D wrote:Best players to make their debut for England in past 30 years - Robin Smith, Alec Stewart, Freddie, Jimmy, KP, Swann & Cook. Tresco despite his mental problems cutting his career short deserves to be included too.

Probably every one of those players could be said to have had just a few more flaws that left them short of their international counterparts in 'the pantheon', as PP has sort of said - they could dominate the opposition but the consistency was somewhat lacking. I'd stop short of saying the words 'not world class' though - I think the phraseology was off kilter. I think he's on about the word 'great'. Of course they were all world class - every one has been a match winner in their own right.

taipan wrote:

Allan D wrote:Best players to make their debut for England in past 30 years - Robin Smith, Alec Stewart, Freddie, Jimmy, KP, Swann & Cook. Tresco despite his mental problems cutting his career short deserves to be included too.

You might want to add David Gower to that list.

Sadly for those of us who can still remember it, Gower made his debut in 1978, 34 years ago so doesn't make the cut.

Allan D wrote:

taipan wrote:

Allan D wrote:Best players to make their debut for England in past 30 years - Robin Smith, Alec Stewart, Freddie, Jimmy, KP, Swann & Cook. Tresco despite his mental problems cutting his career short deserves to be included too.

You might want to add David Gower to that list.

Sadly for those of us who can still remember it, Gower made his debut in 1978, 34 years ago so doesn't make the cut.

Was more in line with the comment of no world class players since Botham.

Brass Monkey wrote:

Allan D wrote:Best players to make their debut for England in past 30 years - Robin Smith, Alec Stewart, Freddie, Jimmy, KP, Swann & Cook. Tresco despite his mental problems cutting his career short deserves to be included too.

Probably every one of those players could be said to have had just a few more flaws that left them short of their international counterparts in 'the pantheon', as PP has sort of said - they could dominate the opposition but the consistency was somewhat lacking. I'd stop short of saying the words 'not world class' though - I think the phraseology was off kilter. I think he's on about the word 'great'. Of course they were all world class - every one has been a match winner in their own right.

Depends on your definition of world class Dan. I would suggest if you would have been selected for any team of your era, that constitutes world class.

Well possibly. I think it's more about getting to that level and actually having some sort of impact on a semi-regular basis.

Well I would say KP has done that.

I'd say they all did that. All of them can draw on many an exemplory performance and various matches won from their impact. Not just those players mentioned, either. But, as I said before it's probably the semantics that PP has got wrong - he surely means 'great' players such as Tendu et al.

Well some might say SRT hasn't impacted as many games as he should have. Personally, for me, Dravid and VVS have played the big innings.

Yeah, but his record is too immaculate and he has too few flaws to be called anything but a bonafide, nailed on ATG.

Agreed, but he's not the one I would pick to bat for my life in the 4th innings..

We all know who that'd be

Maybe Smith, but probably the best 4th innings knock I saw was Atherton at the Wanderers

taipan wrote:Maybe Smith, but probably the best 4th innings knock I saw was Atherton at the Wanderers

Oh. My mistake. I thought you were going to say Virender Sehwag.

Aye, the Athers knock was good... stoic. I was encapsulated by the whole innings.

Stuck in a bubble?

Fred Trueman often said that the epithet "great' was the most misused word in describing cricketers. Even when Viv Richards had come onto the scene he said the last "great" player he had seen was Gary Sobers.

The "great" players to have made their debuts in the last 30 years - Lara, SRT, Murali (if you can overlook his bent arm), McGrath, Warne, Ambrose, Walsh, Kallis (on the basis of his returns though perhaps not so great to watch), Sangakkara & Jayawardene? Of those probably only Lara, SRT, Murali & Warne will be really remembered.

Allan D wrote:Fred Trueman often said that the epithet "great' was the most misused word in describing cricketers. Even when Viv Richards had come onto the scene he said the last "great" player he had seen was Gary Sobers.

The "great" players to have made their debuts in the last 30 years - Lara, SRT, Murali (if you can overlook his bent arm), McGrath, Warne, Ambrose, Walsh, Kallis (on the basis of his returns though perhaps not so great to watch), Sangakkara & Jayawardene? Of those probably only Lara, SRT, Murali & Warne will be really remembered.

You protect the word "great" throughout your post( rightly so in the context of post) but towards the end you call Jayawardene a great

Admittedly he is significantly better than any English batsman of the last 30 years but hardly a great....

Allan D wrote:Best players to make their debut for England in past 30 years - Robin Smith, Alec Stewart, Freddie, Jimmy, KP, Swann & Cook. Tresco despite his mental problems cutting his career short deserves to be included too.

He was a fine batsman! One of my favorite batsmen as a kid, i remember him doing really well against the WI

Sanga but not Gilchrist? I'd have both in there, and I'd chuck Murali out for obvious reasons. He will forever be remembered as a chucker who inflated his results pinging on home wickets v weak teams.