Gooch & Hoggard on Pattinson

by JKLever Fri 18 Jul 2008, 16:48

Some succinct thoughts. Totally agree with Gooch btw, the bit i've put in bold is why I have a problem with Pattinson

Hoggy

"At the moment I'm thinking it's over and looking to see what I'm going to do in the future."

"I'm fit and I'm raring to go and it would have been lovely to play a Test in front of my home crowd here at Headingley," said Hoggard.

"I was a little bit upset when I turned the TV on this morning, found out that Ryan Sidebottom had failed a medical and Pattinson had got the nod."

Hoggard, with 22 wickets at 24.31, Stephen Harmison and Simon Jones, three of England's Ashes-winning bowling attack, were all available.

Hampshire's Chris Tremlett was named in the squad as 12th man but also missed out.

"I honestly thought (Pattinson) was Australian," said Hoggard. "When you speak to him he's got a broad Australian accent and because he's new over here we thought he was on a Kolpak, but obviously not.

"You've got other people who have been stalwarts and put in the years in county cricket and have performed over a number of years but you've got to look for the future and the here and now.

Gooch

Today's selection of Darren Pattinson for England is one of the most leftfield decisions I've ever seen.

The chairman of selectors Geoff Miller has clearly studied the form of all the bowlers in county cricket - as he should - and Pattinson came top of the pile.

I've got no problem with Darren, but we've got to look at the bigger picture.

The international game is in danger of being devalued if we have many more selections like this.

I captained England 34 times and many of the players under me were born overseas. I'm talking of Allan Lamb, Robin Smith, Graeme Hick - none of them born in England but all fantastic servants for this country.

These were men who decided to make their life in England and bring up their kids here. They were passionate about playing for the three Lions, but Pattinson's father says he's a proud Aussie - and his brother plays for their Under-19 side. Can you switch from being a proud Australian to a passionate Englishman overnight?

I grew up in London watching great men like Ken Barrington, Colin Cowdrey and Fred Trueman play for their country.

Representing England is more than just cricket, more than just a game or a pay packet. It's a tremendous honour, and it should be treated as such by players and the selectors.
Is this what playing for your country has come to?

by Henry Fri 18 Jul 2008, 17:01

Now that Pattinson has been picked for England, I guess Saqlain must be very much in the frame as well as England's second spinner?

Worrying times, imo.

by Eric Air Emu Fri 18 Jul 2008, 17:15

Quote from his dad:

"He's Australian, Darren. He is. It's a chance to play international cricket. In all honesty he just wanted a chance to play."

Didn't know he was so half-hearted about being English. Maybe England have been so Banladeshi today because their colective motivation has been poisoned by this interloper cheapening the 3 lions.

by furriner Fri 18 Jul 2008, 17:17

Well, Danesh Kaneria has said he could be available too.

England's got talent.

by furriner Fri 18 Jul 2008, 17:17

Eric Air Emu wrote:Quote from his dad:

"He's Australian, Darren. He is. It's a chance to play international cricket. In all honesty he just wanted a chance to play."

Didn't know he was so half-hearted about being English. Maybe England have been so Banladeshi today because their colective motivation has been poisoned by this interloper cheapening the 3 lions.

Is Pattinson cheaping the value of English cricket?

by Merlin Fri 18 Jul 2008, 17:40

Good on yer Goochie.
Someone with a high profile had to say it ...

I'm beginning to lose faith in Miller.
He promised so much post-Gravey's era - but IMO hasn't delivered yet.

by Chivalry Augustus Fri 18 Jul 2008, 17:46

He didn't really promise owt. He was Loony Tunes apprentice and is now the master (of muppetry). Nearly every decision he has made, in conjuction with our friends Messrs. Moores and Vaughan, has been a crap one. I'm not personally sure it's fair to judge on this one yet, but already you can list a catalogue of errors.

by Merlin Fri 18 Jul 2008, 17:52

Anyone after Gravey was going to be better Auggie.
Miller did have some sound ideas regarding actually scouting for future talent ...
regretably however, Pattinson's selection (without checking background quotes etc) is
a serious misjudgement (whether he does well here or not) ... as it must send out negative
vibes to the grafters (ie., Hoggie) who toil week in week out on the CC circuit.

Clearly they rate Pattinson BETTER than Jones, Hoggard, Harmless and Trembler.
Which is grossly confusing.

by Big_Bad_Bob Fri 18 Jul 2008, 18:43

I can see the way people are thinking on this one, but it looks like Hoggy and Barmy Harmy are finished in the eyes of the selectors, Jones fitness is not completely proven yet, and Pattinson's style of bowling is probably regarded as more suitable to Headingley conditions than Trembles.

In terms of his validity for playing for England I'm not sure what people want here.

We have qualms over people who are not born in England playing for us but make their home here, and now we have qualms over someone who is born here but makes their home somewhere else.

If every nation had the same attitude around the world where exactly is someone born in one country and who makes their home elsewhere supposed to play their international cricket?!

Do we set up a Wanderers Test XI specifically for such folk because nobody else wants them?!

Probably be a decent side too . . .

by JKLever Fri 18 Jul 2008, 18:51

Can't agree with that Bob.

As I've said in the past - i've absolutely no problem with the likes of KP playing for us.
He's had to do 5 years hard graft to qualify.

But this guy, whose father clearly reckons is a straight up Aussie turns up at the start of the season and gets a gig within 2 months?

Quote from his dad:

"He's Australian, Darren. He is. It's a chance to play international cricket. In all honesty he just wanted a chance to play."

What is this the allcomers are welcome XI or our national side?

by Big_Bad_Bob Fri 18 Jul 2008, 18:57

But if you're going to start doing a loyalty test before someone is allowed to play for a nation where does it begin and end, and how loyal is loyal enough?

It becomes a very grey area.

Recital of the national anthem word for word? Favourite meal fish and chips or a roast dinner? Morris dancing as a regular past time?

He was born in England to English parents, England want him to play for them, and he wants to play for England.

Job done.

The quibbling is a bogus and blinkered argument as far as I'm concerned with those employing it harking back unrealistically to a far less mobile global village.

by JKLever Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:12

I'm not having it...

by PearlJ Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:13

JKLever wrote:I'm not having it...

Tim Ambrose? What do you think of him?

by taipan Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:14

Big_Bad_Bob wrote:
He was born in England to English parents, England want him to play for them, and he wants to play for England.

Job done.

Which is exactly why he persued his cricket career in England rather than tiling roofs in Australia.

by Big_Bad_Bob Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:18

JKLever wrote:I'm not having it...

S'fair enough, I shan't hold it against you.

I can see your point, I just don't agree with it.

In doing so, in my opinion you are questioning the validity of the qualification of many other international cricketers round the world (not to mention other sports), and potentially leaving them without any nation for which they can play if you follow it through to its logical extreme.

by JKLever Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:22

PearlJ wrote:
JKLever wrote:I'm not having it...

Tim Ambrose? What do you think of him?

He's been over here since he was 16-7

by JKLever Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:23

Big_Bad_Bob wrote:
JKLever wrote:I'm not having it...

S'fair enough, I shan't hold it against you.

I can see your point, I just don't agree with it.

In doing so, in my opinion you are questioning the validity of the qualification of many other international cricketers round the world (not to mention other sports), and potentially leaving them without any nation for which they can play if you follow it through to its logical extreme.

not really - he can play for Australia. But he isn't good enough. That's life....

I just don't agree with the selection.

by doremi Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:24

I'd have been a bit annoyed if I was an England fan, after the Kaneria interview.

by PearlJ Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:26

JKLever wrote:
PearlJ wrote:
JKLever wrote:I'm not having it...

Tim Ambrose? What do you think of him?

He's been over here since he was 16-7

Fine. But if an player came over at that age and tried to play for Australia I would not be happy with it.
His talent was first spotted and nurtured in NSW

by JKLever Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:28

PearlJ wrote:
JKLever wrote:
PearlJ wrote:
JKLever wrote:I'm not having it...

Tim Ambrose? What do you think of him?

He's been over here since he was 16-7

Fine. But if an player came over at that age and tried to play for Australia I would not be happy with it.
His talent was first spotted and nurtured in NSW

See i've no problem with that, his family is also English (think his sister works for MCC).

by JKLever Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:29

doremi wrote:I'd have been a bit annoyed if I was an England fan, after the Kaneria interview.

Kaneria doesn't bother me in the slightest, cause it aint ever gonna happen. I'd be more pissed if I were a Pakistani at that interview tbh

by taipan Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:30

JKLever wrote:
PearlJ wrote:
JKLever wrote:
PearlJ wrote:
JKLever wrote:I'm not having it...

Tim Ambrose? What do you think of him?

He's been over here since he was 16-7

Fine. But if an player came over at that age and tried to play for Australia I would not be happy with it.
His talent was first spotted and nurtured in NSW

See i've no problem with that, his family is also English (think his sister works for MCC).

Ah the old school tie?

by Big_Bad_Bob Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:33

JKLever wrote:
Big_Bad_Bob wrote:
JKLever wrote:I'm not having it...

S'fair enough, I shan't hold it against you.

I can see your point, I just don't agree with it.

In doing so, in my opinion you are questioning the validity of the qualification of many other international cricketers round the world (not to mention other sports), and potentially leaving them without any nation for which they can play if you follow it through to its logical extreme.

not really - he can play for Australia. But he isn't good enough. That's life....

I just don't agree with the selection.

But had he been selected there, you can guarantee some in Australia would be moaning about an Englishman, born in England to English parents, representing 'Oz.

As I say, I think you are trying to uphold one half of a traditional ideal of an individual's nationality that is just not applicable to thousands of potential international sportsmen and women around an increasingly mobile world today.

What is LP Hartley says at the start of 'The Go-Between'?

'The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.'

Something like that anyway.

by Big_Bad_Bob Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:34

JKLever wrote:
PearlJ wrote:
JKLever wrote:
PearlJ wrote:
JKLever wrote:I'm not having it...

Tim Ambrose? What do you think of him?

He's been over here since he was 16-7

Fine. But if an player came over at that age and tried to play for Australia I would not be happy with it.
His talent was first spotted and nurtured in NSW

See i've no problem with that, his family is also English (think his sister works for MCC).

Are Pattinson's parents not English? The difference is marginal.

by taipan Fri 18 Jul 2008, 19:35

No, I think most of the poms here are saying he hadn't done enough to get selected.

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