Football World Cup 2014

Brass Monkey wrote:

PeterCS wrote:That's because he is more talented than 99.x% of them.

Bear in mind also that when the ball came to Messi, he was generally crowded with a 4-5 player cover.

I bore.

No comment needed.

taipan wrote:

Dello wrote:Messi wins the Golden Ball?

Didn't score after the group stages. That's four blanks in a row when it mattered.

The final group match against Nigeria was a dead rubber, so really he's won the GB for a goal apiece against the might of Iran and Bosnia.

Absolute bollock of an award - was it sponsored by Adidas or something?

Muller scored more goals and more assists and was actually on the winning team. How about that, for starters?

I couldn't work it out either.

beamer wrote:It was quickly pointed out that all the award winners were Adidas men... though can't argue with Neuer, even if there were plenty of keepers putting in great performances, he was the one that showed a lot more than just reaction saves.

Oh, it really was sponsored by Adidas. I was just being facetious.

First time in WC history the golden ball has been voted for by FIFA and not the media.

Diego Maradona doesn't rate the decision: “It’s not right when someone wins something that he shouldn’t have won, just because of some marketing plan.”

Good old FIFA, never knowingly uncorrupt.

Neuer should have won every award going - he set a new standard for a sweeper keeper, stopping many dangerous situations before they even had a chance to develop, while making some world-class saves. I'm delighted Germany won, seeing as I was born near Dortmund I've always had a soft stop for Dortmund and the national team. A lot of credit goes to Gerhard Mayer-Vorfelder for encouraging the necessary change circa 2001, where a long-term strategy was put in place, namely to improve the ball skills of young footballers and play at a greater pace. The restructuring of grass roots football thereafter has led to an impressive resurgence.

It should be an interesting few years for European football, though, with both Spain and Germany seeming to have quality young players coming out their ears. I'm sure England will put in place an umpteenth long-term strategy any day now, founded entirely upon giving the big clubs every young player going for 47p per player.

Well done Germany -
Let's hope Merterssaker, Ozil and Podolski  bring their WC form back to the Emirates!

Messi winning a golden ball to go with his golden boot  - Massive joke.

Merlin wrote:Well done Germany -
Let's hope Merterssaker, Ozil and Podolski  bring their WC form back to the Emirates!

Messi winning a golden ball to go with his golden boot  - Massive joke.

Yeah, I can't believe they gave him the golden boot award despite the fact he didn't score the most goals.




Oh wait, they didn't.

vilkrang wrote:

Merlin wrote:Well done Germany -
Let's hope Merterssaker, Ozil and Podolski  bring their WC form back to the Emirates!

Messi winning a golden ball to go with his golden boot  - Massive joke.

Yeah, I can't believe they gave him the golden boot award despite the fact he didn't score the most goals.




Oh wait, they didn't.

Didn't he get the UEFA Golden Boot this season just gone ?
That's the one I meant ....

Ah okay. I thought that as this is the world cup thread your post might have been related to the world cup that's just happened.

vilkrang wrote:Ah okay. I thought that as this is the world cup thread your post might have been related to the world cup that's just happened.

Nah - just ridiculing the Messi decision ... and using the WC thread to do so!

Still can't believe they gave him the European golden shoe despite the fact he didn't score the most goals.

Chivalry Augustus wrote:Neuer should have won every award going - he set a new standard for a sweeper keeper, stopping many dangerous situations before they even had a chance to develop, while making some world-class saves. I'm delighted Germany won, seeing as I was born near Dortmund I've always had a soft stop for Dortmund and the national team. A lot of credit goes to Gerhard Mayer-Vorfelder for encouraging the necessary change circa 2001, where a long-term strategy was put in place, namely to improve the ball skills of young footballers and play at a greater pace. The restructuring of grass roots football thereafter has led to an impressive resurgence.

It should be an interesting few years for European football, though, with both Spain and Germany seeming to have quality young players coming out their ears. I'm sure England will put in place an umpteenth long-term strategy any day now, founded entirely upon giving the big clubs every young player going for 47p per player.

You can get tablets for that.

You must love love LOVE Mario Goetze.


Is that a wind-up about a Gerhard Mayer-Vorfelder? Gurrrtcha Smith-Upfields?

Brass Monkey wrote:

PeterCS wrote:That's because he is more talented than 99.x% of them.

Bear in mind also that when the ball came to Messi, he was generally crowded with a 4-5 player cover.

I bore that in mind. They swamped him and an effect of that was that he was by and large neutralised and hence doesn't deserve the player of the tournament. Maybe they could've made up a special award for him - maybe the Golden Grope for the most marked man in the tournament. But he certainly wasn't the best player of the tournament.

Hmmm - I dunno. I'm a bit skeptical about "best" in such contexts anyway. How can you compare the merits of a Ha-MESS with those of a Mascherano, for a start?

Clearly, the Golden Ball is a Mickey Mouse award, esp bearing in mind its provenance. (Beckham had a double claim on it.)

That allowed, if by "best" you mean "ultimately decisive" (one of the ways it's used), then of course your decision can only be from 15 German players. And your ultimate choice of ultimate still depends a bit on a subjective verdict. Was Mueller more crucial than Neuer, Boateng, Schuerrle, Lahm or Goetze?

If you mean pure quality, mesmeric "on-elastic" ball control, worth the entrance money on his own and sheer bloody poetic brilliance, Messi (I believe) has to be in the top few on any fair judge's list. Even though he certainly did look knackered after 45 minutes of the Final of an extremely long tournament. Perhaps not surprisingly, in view of his occasionally single-handed but double-footed exertions in the month or however long it was to that point.

btw, on the general theme: Even without two of their attacking stars fit, Argentina could quite easily have won the Final in 90 mins, and for all the deserved laudatory comments on Germany, I don't feel it would have been a travesty on the night. (True, the Argies "paced" their progress through the various rounds very bloody laboriously, and only served to hamstring themselves by leaving it to penalties v Netherlands three nights or whatever it was before the showdown. Had Di Maria been available and/or Aguero working on more than willpower, ..... etc.)

Chivalry Augustus wrote:Neuer should have won every award going - he set a new standard for a sweeper keeper, stopping many dangerous situations before they even had a chance to develop, while making some world-class saves. I'm delighted Germany won, seeing as I was born near Dortmund I've always had a soft stop for Dortmund and the national team. A lot of credit goes to Gerhard Mayer-Vorfelder for encouraging the necessary change circa 2001, where a long-term strategy was put in place, namely to improve the ball skills of young footballers and play at a greater pace. The restructuring of grass roots football thereafter has led to an impressive resurgence.

It should be an interesting few years for European football, though, with both Spain and Germany seeming to have quality young players coming out their ears. I'm sure England will put in place an umpteenth long-term strategy any day now, founded entirely upon giving the big clubs every young player going for 47p per player.

As I've said before, maybe we do just need to stick to what we're good at, which is pace, power and physicality... Greece with (hopefully slightly) more talent. Get a solid back four and learn to take penalties and we've got half a chance of winning a tournament one day. Rather than long term plans that will always be trying to catch up with what was in fashion 10 years earlier. The Premier League's not going to change for the England team, lower league football isn't going to sacrifice itself for the cause either... more chance of Suarez winning the fair play award than England ever winning a tournament with the most skilful side and highest possession percentage.

PeterCS wrote:
Hmmm - I dunno. I'm a bit skeptical about "best" in such contexts anyway. How can you compare the merits of a Ha-MESS with those of a Mascherano, for a start?

Clearly, the Golden Ball is a Mickey Mouse award, esp bearing in mind its provenance. (Beckham had a double claim on it.)

Good points. I still think he wasn't as influential and decisive as others in the tournament, including his teammate in Mascherano. He didn't help shape many games after the group stages. Whereas quite a few others could claim otherwise. He looked good on the ball and helped them through against Belgium with an 'assist', but the likes of Vlaar, Lahm, Muller and even Robben could claim to more influence on proceedings.

PeterCS wrote:

Brass Monkey wrote:

PeterCS wrote:That's because he is more talented than 99.x% of them.

Bear in mind also that when the ball came to Messi, he was generally crowded with a 4-5 player cover.

I bore that in mind. They swamped him and an effect of that was that he was by and large neutralised and hence doesn't deserve the player of the tournament. Maybe they could've made up a special award for him - maybe the Golden Grope for the most marked man in the tournament. But he certainly wasn't the best player of the tournament.

Hmmm - I dunno. I'm a bit skeptical about "best" in such contexts anyway. How can you compare the merits of a Ha-MESS with those of a Mascherano, for a start?

Clearly, the Golden Ball is a Mickey Mouse award, esp bearing in mind its provenance. (Beckham had a double claim on it.)

That allowed, if by "best" you mean "ultimately decisive" (one of the ways it's used), then of course your decision can only be from 15 German players. And your ultimate choice of ultimate still depends a bit on a subjective verdict. Was Mueller more crucial than Neuer, Boateng, Schuerrle, Lahm or Goetze?

If you mean pure quality, mesmeric "on-elastic" ball control, worth the entrance money on his own and sheer bloody poetic brilliance, Messi (I believe) has to be in the top few on any fair judge's list. Even though he certainly did look knackered after 45 minutes of the Final of an extremely long tournament. Perhaps not surprisingly, in view of his occasionally single-handed but double-footed exertions in the month or however long it was to that point.

btw, on the general theme: Even without two of their attacking stars fit, Argentina could quite easily have won the Final in 90 mins, and for all the deserved laudatory comments on Germany, I don't feel it would have been a travesty on the night. (True, the Argies "paced" their progress through the various rounds very bloody laboriously, and only served to hamstring themselves by leaving it to penalties v Netherlands three nights or whatever it was before the showdown. Had Di Maria been available and/or Aguero working on more than willpower, ..... etc.)

And if my auntie had balls etc Etc.

Dello wrote:Messi wins the Golden Ball?

Didn't score after the group stages. That's four blanks in a row when it mattered.

The final group match against Nigeria was a dead rubber, so really he's won the GB for a goal apiece against the might of Iran and Bosnia.

Absolute bollock of an award - was it sponsored by Adidas or something?

Muller scored more goals and more assists and was actually on the winning team. How about that, for starters?

I'm sorry but this is bollocks. Simplistic bollocks. Muller scored more goals. LMAO LOL ROFL and all a dose tings.

This kind of opinion comes from unrealistic expectations (which everyone has for Messi) and not giving enough weight to how poor Argentina were in their midfield and attack (bar Messi).

Messi is DEFINITELY in the team of the tournament and probably the golden ball winner. He has dragged Argentina to a final they should have won. Firstly, I disagree that Muller has been all that outstanding. As you are basing your entire judgement on goals - Muller scored 3 of his 5 goals in the first game against a dreadful Portugal side who were down to 10 men for most of the game. 3 of his goals in the first game (one a penalty he didn't win and one a tap in). Another goal against the US and one of 7 goals against some of the worst defending I've ever seen. And he's played in a much better side. Ooh yeah, best player of the tournament. My f*cking arse. He's fashionable at the moment and he's a great player. He's nowhere near Messi in any way.

Messi has not only created the most chances at this world cup, he's beaten the most players, scored 4 goals and an assist and has been dangerous nearly every time he's had the ball. He's been let down by appalling support from his midfield and attack, particularly Higuain, Aguero (both half fit), Gago, Biglia, Lavezzi, Di Maria (although gradually improved throughout) and especially Sabella who repeatedly and inexplicably substituted Perez throughout (as well as Lavezzi in his only decent game in the final).

To compare I saw one of these memes online - Zidane was a losing finalist with France in 2006 and got 3 goals and an assist in the entire tournament, nutted someone in the final and won the golden ball - deserved supposedly. Forlan finished 4th in 2010 and got 5 goals and an assist - golden ball. Deserved supposedly.

If you take it game by game, he's been instrumental. I'm not having this 'done nothing for 4 games breeze' as anyone's who actually watched the games knows it's not true.

1st game - stunner, the winner and MOTM to save his team

2nd game - stunner, winner and MOTM to save his team

3rd game, stunner (fk), 2 goals, MOTM and subbed after 60 mins.

4th game against yet another team that parked the bus, volley just over, jink into the box beating two players that produced a good low save as well as the great run and assist for the winner, MOTM.

5th game against another team that played the low block, best player on the pitch again, his pirouette and pass created the space and led to Higuain's goal and played the pass of the tournament to Di Maria, best attacking player on the pitch in a tight game.

6th game against Holland. Holland sat back and played to counter like they did nearly all tournament. In a match where neither team had many chances as all the key players were stifled by close marking and world cup semi final tension, decent free kick saved in first half too close to keeper, created 2 CLEAR goalscoring chances for Palacio - (flick over the defence, Palacio clear through, headed it at the keeper) and Maxi - (beats Vlaar, Kuyt, Vlaar again and crosses for clear chance at back post, Maxi fluffs the volley.) If his team mates don't let him down, he's a hero. Then scores first penalty under pressure.

Final. Inches wide with his shot, skinned Hummels (one of the best CB in the tournament) several times and had Boateng clear from virtually on the goaline after charging through offside trap. Palacio and Higuain miss great chances.

Basically at the centre of everything, created nearly every chance, outscored the rest of the team put together (and every player in the tournament bar 2) and all while being kicked, smothered and entire teams being set up to nullify him.

Whoscored did a statistical analysis of the best players at the world cup. Guess who came top. Yup. Lionel Messi. Completed more dribbles than anyone else at the tournament (46 - third highest of any player at any WC tournament ever), created more chances than anyone else (23), won possession in the attacking third 4 times (bettered by only 5 players in the tournament). Their top 5 players in order were:

Messi
Robben/Hamez
Neymar/Pjanic
Muller in 5th.

Robben had 3 goals, 1 assist and created 17 chances.

Another comparison - Maradona made 27 key passes in 1986 and 5 were scored by teammates Messi made 23 and 1 was scored.

And to go back to the original point of unrealistic expectations - people expect Messi to score in every game to have a good game - this is bollocks based on the ridiculous standard he has set. It's not only unrealistic but ignores the fact that often he is the playmaker and goalscorer (being the clear best in the world at both roles) and was expected to do both roles in this Argentina side. His main issue was that he couldn't pass to himself. Too often he is running at midfields and hitting the second line of players (defence) rather than running at back lines as he should be. He has to play a deeper role to create as well as score chances. And when he does create, his team mates can't capitalise.

Mourinho is NOT a Barcelona or Messi fan and has rarely said anything good about Messi after all the rancour while he was at Madrid but he was spot on:  

"Messi sacrificed himself for the team. He wanted to win, he didn't want to be topscorer or MVP, he wanted to make history. Messi played in zones that are not his. He had to play so deep that he had to cross 2-3 lines. Always had 2-3 players on him. He was trying to create something out of nothing for his team. His assist to Di Maria for example was brilliant. If Messi wanted to be the goalscoring phenomenon we all know he is, he could have just played up front, close to Higuain and waited for chances*. All my respect to Messi because he played for his team and this can't be said of all the players at this World Cup".

*I'd finish that off with "but would they have come? No."

He is the greatest player any of us will ever see and he deserved the golden ball as one of the top contenders for it. If Rodriguez had gone a little further he'd have won it. Yeah, there's a discussion to be had but the only other players I'd say even compete with Messi are Neuer, Hummels, Mascherano, Garay and Kroos (it's all in the margins as his back pass header could have gone the other way had Higuain finished and he'd be a villain). But this "it's ridiculous Messi won" is just sh*te. An ongoing narrative to belittle a player who is just too good. Victim of his own success.


Also Germany were not all that special - they're going to get hammered sooner or later playing that high back line with a slow defence. Rode their luck and relied on Neuer's brilliance against USA, Algeria, Ghana and Argentina (who should have won). Great players, good passing but haven't played particularly brilliantly - the semi against the utterly woeful Brazilian team has skewed perceptions.

Oh and that Judas c*nt had to score a brilliant winner didn't he. Sh*tbag c*nt.

Seriously, LLL?

This is almost Fwank Lampardesque in its stupidity.

taipan wrote:
And if my auntie had balls etc Etc.

In your case quite possible - bearing in mind all that surplus testosterone sloshing around   

@LLL - Be careful, or taipan will have a shot at you too!

Agree on Messi - see above - if perhaps less vehemently :o)

However, I don't think you can deny Germany are a very good team, with some highly talented individuals and a strong team ethic and collective motor. (And a bright coach, too. No, not Deutz.)

But I'd agree with you on oen point - partly for the reasons you adduce - they are hardly invincible.

I'm sure the German win is also a comment on the clear shortcomings of the other teams in the Finals (and as I argued above, also required a certain portion of good fortune, which you always need - even if counterfactuals are balls for you).


Some "prophets", perhaps a bit too carried away by the massive footballing superiority of Europe's biggest nation in this tournament, are already predicting an extended period of German dominance, in Europe and the World.

Well ... such excitable people tend to jump to conclusions of that sort (~ remember that England would win the Ashes for a good decade?, etc ....).

But things can change. It may well be that essentially this squad WILL win the Europeans in two years - or everything in sight for 10, 20 years.

But Spain, Italy, Netherlands and one or two others might not want to be ruled out quite yet. ...

As ever, we'll see.

I think England's soccer has continued to decline and I see no prospects of them winning anything much other than most humorous haircut in show...they have descended to Australia's level...I fail to understand how this can possibly be the case...explanations anyone?

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:

Dello wrote:Messi wins the Golden Ball?

Didn't score after the group stages. That's four blanks in a row when it mattered.

The final group match against Nigeria was a dead rubber, so really he's won the GB for a goal apiece against the might of Iran and Bosnia.

Absolute bollock of an award - was it sponsored by Adidas or something?

Muller scored more goals and more assists and was actually on the winning team. How about that, for starters?

I'm sorry but this is bollocks. Simplistic bollocks. Muller scored more goals. LMAO LOL ROFL and all a dose tings.

This kind of opinion comes from unrealistic expectations (which everyone has for Messi) and not giving enough weight to how poor Argentina were in their midfield and attack (bar Messi).

Messi is DEFINITELY in the team of the tournament and probably the golden ball winner. He has dragged Argentina to a final they should have won. Firstly, I disagree that Muller has been all that outstanding. As you are basing your entire judgement on goals - Muller scored 3 of his 5 goals in the first game against a dreadful Portugal side who were down to 10 men for most of the game. 3 of his goals in the first game (one a penalty he didn't win and one a tap in). Another goal against the US and one of 7 goals against some of the worst defending I've ever seen. And he's played in a much better side. Ooh yeah, best player of the tournament. My f*cking arse. He's fashionable at the moment and he's a great player. He's nowhere near Messi in any way.

Messi has not only created the most chances at this world cup, he's beaten the most players, scored 4 goals and an assist and has been dangerous nearly every time he's had the ball. He's been let down by appalling support from his midfield and attack, particularly Higuain, Aguero (both half fit), Gago, Biglia, Lavezzi, Di Maria (although gradually improved throughout) and especially Sabella who repeatedly and inexplicably substituted Perez throughout (as well as Lavezzi in his only decent game in the final).

To compare I saw one of these memes online - Zidane was a losing finalist with France in 2006 and got 3 goals and an assist in the entire tournament, nutted someone in the final and won the golden ball - deserved supposedly. Forlan finished 4th in 2010 and got 5 goals and an assist - golden ball. Deserved supposedly.

If you take it game by game, he's been instrumental. I'm not having this 'done nothing for 4 games breeze' as anyone's who actually watched the games knows it's not true.

1st game - stunner, the winner and MOTM to save his team

2nd game - stunner, winner and MOTM to save his team

3rd game, stunner (fk), 2 goals, MOTM and subbed after 60 mins.

4th game against yet another team that parked the bus, volley just over, jink into the box beating two players that produced a good low save as well as the great run and assist for the winner, MOTM.

5th game against another team that played the low block, best player on the pitch again, his pirouette and pass created the space and led to Higuain's goal and played the pass of the tournament to Di Maria, best attacking player on the pitch in a tight game.

6th game against Holland. Holland sat back and played to counter like they did nearly all tournament. In a match where neither team had many chances as all the key players were stifled by close marking and world cup semi final tension, decent free kick saved in first half too close to keeper, created 2 CLEAR goalscoring chances for Palacio - (flick over the defence, Palacio clear through, headed it at the keeper) and Maxi - (beats Vlaar, Kuyt, Vlaar again and crosses for clear chance at back post, Maxi fluffs the volley.) If his team mates don't let him down, he's a hero. Then scores first penalty under pressure.

Final. Inches wide with his shot, skinned Hummels (one of the best CB in the tournament) several times and had Boateng clear from virtually on the goaline after charging through offside trap. Palacio and Higuain miss great chances.

Basically at the centre of everything, created nearly every chance, outscored the rest of the team put together (and every player in the tournament bar 2) and all while being kicked, smothered and entire teams being set up to nullify him.

Whoscored did a statistical analysis of the best players at the world cup. Guess who came top. Yup. Lionel Messi. Completed more dribbles than anyone else at the tournament (46 - third highest of any player at any WC tournament ever), created more chances than anyone else (23), won possession in the attacking third 4 times (bettered by only 5 players in the tournament). Their top 5 players in order were:

Messi
Robben/Hamez
Neymar/Pjanic
Muller in 5th.

Robben had 3 goals, 1 assist and created 17 chances.

Another comparison - Maradona made 27 key passes in 1986 and 5 were scored by teammates Messi made 23 and 1 was scored.

And to go back to the original point of unrealistic expectations - people expect Messi to score in every game to have a good game - this is bollocks based on the ridiculous standard he has set. It's not only unrealistic but ignores the fact that often he is the playmaker and goalscorer (being the clear best in the world at both roles) and was expected to do both roles in this Argentina side. His main issue was that he couldn't pass to himself. Too often he is running at midfields and hitting the second line of players (defence) rather than running at back lines as he should be. He has to play a deeper role to create as well as score chances. And when he does create, his team mates can't capitalise.

Mourinho is NOT a Barcelona or Messi fan and has rarely said anything good about Messi after all the rancour while he was at Madrid but he was spot on:  

"Messi sacrificed himself for the team. He wanted to win, he didn't want to be topscorer or MVP, he wanted to make history. Messi played in zones that are not his. He had to play so deep that he had to cross 2-3 lines. Always had 2-3 players on him. He was trying to create something out of nothing for his team. His assist to Di Maria for example was brilliant. If Messi wanted to be the goalscoring phenomenon we all know he is, he could have just played up front, close to Higuain and waited for chances*. All my respect to Messi because he played for his team and this can't be said of all the players at this World Cup".

*I'd finish that off with "but would they have come? No."

He is the greatest player any of us will ever see and he deserved the golden ball as one of the top contenders for it. If Rodriguez had gone a little further he'd have won it. Yeah, there's a discussion to be had but the only other players I'd say even compete with Messi are Neuer, Hummels, Mascherano, Garay and Kroos (it's all in the margins as his back pass header could have gone the other way had Higuain finished and he'd be a villain). But this "it's ridiculous Messi won" is just sh*te. An ongoing narrative to belittle a player who is just too good. Victim of his own success.


Also Germany were not all that special - they're going to get hammered sooner or later playing that high back line with a slow defence. Rode their luck and relied on Neuer's brilliance against USA, Algeria, Ghana and Argentina (who should have won). Great players, good passing but haven't played particularly brilliantly - the semi against the utterly woeful Brazilian team has skewed perceptions.

That was a lot of words to say you fancy him.

PeterCS wrote:

taipan wrote:
And if my auntie had balls etc Etc.

In your case quite possible - bearing in mind all that surplus testosterone sloshing around   

It took you almost two days to come up with that?

He probably just didn't look at the thread. Or couldn't be bothered to respond, because let's face it - what's the point.

About 9/10 paragraphs of point, apparently.

Paul Keating wrote:Seriously, LLL?

This is almost Fwank Lampardesque in its stupidity.

Please let me know what is stupid and why.

Kind Regards