Bruce Jenner

Was mentioned in the Nepal thread but I think this deserves it's own thread.

Now whilst I hate labelling my political views, for the most part I would usually choose the "liberal" view although I take each issue on a case by case basis. I have no problems with homosexuality and see it as normal - some people are born being more attracted to the same sex and that's fine.

But transgender is something I have always struggled to see as a real thing and not a construct made by too much therapy. I'm not saying therapy doesn't have it's benefits but I can't see how going the transgender route is ever going to help an individual. If someone chooses to be transgender then they are choosing to be ostracised by society for good. A transgender person cannot walk down the street without 90% of people looking in judgement on them. How can that be helpful?

A man who has had an operation to cut off their dick and have fake tit implants is not a woman to me. They can't have children and they can't menstruate. When I see someone like this all I see is a very troubled man who has made some terrible decisions which will cut them off from society and anyone supportive of such a procedure is doing them a disservice.

I've really tried to be understanding over this issue for a number of years but I would be lying if I said that it was normal and okay.

People are free to do whatever they want to do and it's never going to impact on my life, but I just feel desperately sorry for anyone who has chosen this route and I would be surprised if they were happy (and in fact there are studies that show they aren't happy and often suicidal afterwards http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth).

I imagine my views won't be too popular but I'm always willing to change them if anyone puts up a convincing argument.... Anyone?

I find it baffling, but then the whole point is that I've always felt like a man. I can't imagine what it would feel like to feel like I was a member of the opposite sex. From a surgery perspective, what they do to reassign is a f*cking wreck up and it scares the living shit out of me. To put yourself through such an ordeal must mean you're serious about it. For that reason alone I see it as a 'real thing'. How many cases do you hear about someone wanting to change back? Very few. Which means the people who have gender reassignment are generally more often happier and less likely to feel suicidal. I'm not all touchy-feely triumphal about it like today's twitterverse, but fair play all the same. Whether I'd allow the full reassignment to be done on the NHS is another story - hormone therapy yeah, but the operations are so exceptionally expensive that I don't know whether that amount of funding should go to something like that.

I think whether somebody is more likely to be ostracised from society really comes down to whether they're 'passable' or not. 

Ultimately, like a lot of things, it comes down to appearance. If they look very much like a natural born female then people on the whole will probably find it a lot easier to accept them - even if their knickers are still packing a doomstick.

Conversely, if they've had the full operation and they still pretty much like look a truck driver in drag then they'll face more hostility and rejection.  

Either way, it's hard for us to really understand what they go through because it's something we can never experience. I just say live and let live.

krikri wrote:I think whether somebody is more likely to be ostracised from society really comes down to whether they're 'passable' or not. 

Ultimately, like a lot of things, it comes down to appearance. If they look very much like a natural born female then people on the whole will probably find it a lot easier to accept them - even if their knickers are still packing a doomstick.

Conversely, if they've had the full operation and they still pretty much like look a truck driver in drag then they'll face more hostility and rejection.  

Either way, it's hard for us to really understand what they go through because it's something we can never experience. I just say live and let live.

Totally, they will never have any grief from me, but it just seems sad that I imagine acceptance is what they really want whereas pity is probably the best they will get.

One of the most difficult things for them is that they will be constantly having hormone therapy so it's not a decision to be taken lightly.

What does blur the lines, is that we had someone from an organisation come to speak with us because there is someone in our workplace who is transgender (i.e. will have the operation at a later date) but the speaker said that there are about ten categories now identified regarding the gender spectrum. The belief is that people should be allowed to wake up one day and feel male and the next female etcetera. That did stretch the credibility of some of our audience. There are also complications because special arrangements have to be made in organisations re. change-rooms, resources etc.

I too have no quibble with people's identity choices but it is certainly symptomatic of the more complex world we live in today.

Red wrote:One of the most difficult things for them is that they will be constantly having hormone therapy so it's not a decision to be taken lightly.

What does blur the lines, is that we had someone from an organisation come to speak with us because there is someone in our workplace who is transgender (i.e. will have the operation at a later date) but the speaker said that there are about ten categories now identified regarding the gender spectrum. The belief is that people should be allowed to wake up one day and feel male and the next female etcetera. That did stretch the credibility of some of our audience. There are also complications because special arrangements have to be made in organisations re. change-rooms, resources etc.

I too have no quibble with people's identity choices but it is certainly symptomatic of the more complex world we live in today.

The other question is how far society should be expected to stretch to cater for the tastes of minorities.

Happy to be proven wrong but it also does feel like a very "1st world" problem.

vilkrang wrote:Happy to be proven wrong but it also does feel like a very "1st world" problem.

Only because the touchy/feely 1st world is more open to these problems.

vilkrang wrote:Happy to be proven wrong but it also does feel like a very "1st world" problem.

not much of a drama in Thailand

I have been tempted to post a Bruce Jenner thread for some time, but felt it was all a bit "who cares".

IRDGAF what Jenner does with his life but the whole idea of changing your gender intrigues me. Here he was, an Olympic hero, the epitome of manliness, now transitioning to be a chick. Those urges, feelings and doubts he has must be massive to make such a call.

An acquaintance (a mate of a mate) went through the change. He/she has had all the trouble in the world with facial hair (he was a beardy). He's now pretty much a bearded woman.

Of his two best mates, one accepted the change, the other just couldn't. Must admit, i was gobsmacked when they told me.

An interesting perspective: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21/the-categories-were-made-for-man-not-man-for-the-categories/

I have to say if there was an injection you could take that would turn you without pain or difficulty into a reasonable-looking woman and that was just as easily reversible, I'd give it a go, if for no other reason than curiosity. Not curious enough to start chopping bits off though.

You crack me up, Winky.

"Let's try being a woman for a week to see what it's like".

One of our senior army officers is a woman who used to be a man. That might top the Jenner thing on the manliness scale. Upside was the Chief of Army didn't have a problem with it but it subsequently ruled her out of previously held combat roles.

This blew me away in a "I can't really get my head around it": One of our Senators used to be bi, went fully lesbian and got into and remains in a relationship with a with a chick who later transitioned.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned but...........

Tend to agree, q, but I haven't had to contend with what the folks that have these issues do.

But I put it up there with guys/gals who have an amputation fetish. You'd better be farken sure before you take the leap, cos there ain't no going back.

skully wrote:Tend to agree, q, but I haven't had to contend with what the folks that have these issues do.

But I put it up there with guys/gals who have an amputation fetish. You'd better be farken sure before you take the leap, cos there ain't no going back.

Really? Nothing would surprise me today.

Its hard to know who's up whom & who's paying.

This thread has just reminded me that our second dog - the boy - got the snip today.

Hopefully the little shit will calm down a bit now.

Who the f**k is Bruce Jenner?

Merlin wrote:Who the f**k is Bruce Jenner?

No one any more.

Jenny Bruce

Look, he fathered a f*cking horndog. He deserves our acknowledgement

I see his her driving has also gone to shit.