Ricky Ponting vs Jacques Kallis.

Everyone always says that Ponting will inevitably take Sachin's most hundreds records and Lara's most runs record.

Why does no one ever talk about Kallis?

Ponting has 33 hundreds and Kallis has 29 but crucially, Kallis is a good year younger than Ponting.

Ponting has 39 half centuries. Kallis has 46.

Ponting has played 114Tests and Kallis has played 113.

Ponting has 9,571 runs and Kallis has 9,340.

Ponting has taken 129 catches. Kallis has taken 117.

They've both got good averages against everyone and both average 58.

When you consider that Ponting has been in a much stronger side and hasn't had to play McWarne, there's really not a lot between them and Kallis is a year younger. Also, Kallis strikes me as a batsman that won't suffer too much with age because his technique is so good.

So my questions are :

a) who is the greater player now?

b) who will be the greater player at the end of their careers?

c) who will hold the most centuries/runs records?

d) Why is Kallis so overlooked?

Ponting scores his run probably about 7-8 runs per hundred balls quicker.

Kallis is as good a slip as Ponting, and also bowls.

Tough call. I'd go with Ponting as a more valuable player.

Phurt. Runs made at No. 3 are worth twice those scored down the order when judging a batsman.

It's actually about 15 runs faster which is quite a lot. But then you need players like Dravid, Kallis, Thorpe to hold innings' together.

That said, if Ponting's doing everything Kallis is doing but a bit quicker, then you'd obviously choose him.

I don't see why Kallis isn't considered when talking about all these records that Ponting is going to inevitably break.

He's younger, almost as good and their records are incredibly similar, so I see no reason why it's not a two horse race rather than Ponting simply strolling towards every record in cricket as is often made out.

tac wrote:Phurt. Runs made at No. 3 are worth twice those scored down the order when judging a batsman.

I'm not sure it's twice as much. At the end of the day, runs are runs.

And Ponting played more than a third of his innings' lower down the order anyway.

On the scorecard they look the same, but when you have a No.3 scoring runs, you tend to see bigger team scores and players down the order can generally score more quickly or at least take more chances trying to score more quickly.

As at 17 Sept '07

Zscore has their respective strike rates as 58.9 and 42.8. I didn't realise Kallis batted that slowly.

Has Kallis taken the game by the scruff of th neck and won it like Punter?

But they're not worth twice as much. Nowhere near.

And Kallis's top order has always been much weaker than Ponting's so he's likely to come in pretty soon anyway.

Ponting has often had the benefit of the child abuser and Langer putting on a massive stand. Not to mention, Warne and McGrath putting Australia in a comfortable, un-pressurised, position.

And I'm certain Kallis has batted a lot at first drop too?

Paul Keating wrote:And I'm certain Kallis has batted a lot at first drop too?

Yes. Good point. Forgot about that.

77 of his innings' have been at number 3. Which is about 40% of his innings'.

Kallis is younger than Ponting? Fark me!

Ponting has batted down the order, but his runs have been scored at 3. I suspect it might be the opposite with Kallis?

HH_pink wrote:Kallis is younger than Ponting? Fark me!

I know! I was surprised too.

It's probably because monkeys don't age.

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:

Why does no one ever talk about Kallis?

d) Why is Kallis so overlooked?

Coz he bores the sh!t out of most people?

Kallis had a very poor start to his test career. Averaged something like 20 after his first 10 tests before making that breakthrough hundred at Melbourne in 97-98.

tac wrote:Ponting has batted down the order, but his runs have been scored at 3. I suspect it might be the opposite with Kallis?

Kallis averages just under 50 at 3. Ponting averages 66.

However, Kallis averages 72 at 4, which, when you consider South Africa's top order is not that different to 3. Ponting averages 30 at 4.

Kallis has played 40% of his innings' at 3 and 50% of his innings' at 4.

Ponting has played 65% of his innings' at 3 and 30% of his innings at 6 and 7.

So it's equal-ish.

I remember that, I think Reiffel took his off stump out.

It went to the wire, but Pollock survived heaps of balls to bat out a draw.

Kallis averages 58-odd away (remarkably close to his overall average!) while Ponting averages 51-odd away!

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:

tac wrote:Ponting has batted down the order, but his runs have been scored at 3. I suspect it might be the opposite with Kallis?

Kallis averages just under 50 at 3. Ponting averages 66.

However, Kallis averages 72 at 4, which, when you consider South Africa's top order is not that different to 3. Ponting averages 30 at 4.

Kallis has played 40% of his innings' at 3 and 50% of his innings' at 4.

Ponting has played 65% of his innings' at 3 and 30% of his innings at 6 and 7.

So it's equal-ish.

Ummmm . . . I'd question your understanding of the word "equal" , but I remember the "hearsay" thread so I'll let it pass . . .

Kallis is better against quality spin on turning tracks.

Well 90% of Kallis's innings have been at 3 and 4 with a poor top order.

65% of Ponting's innings have been at 3 and 30% at 6 and 7. Both with a very strong batting line up in every position, two excellent big run scoring openers and 2 all time great bowlers to take the pressure off.

I still don't buy the "worth twice as much argument" but if you did subscribe to it, it seems pretty equal to me.

tac wrote:

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:

tac wrote:Ponting has batted down the order, but his runs have been scored at 3. I suspect it might be the opposite with Kallis?

Kallis averages just under 50 at 3. Ponting averages 66.

However, Kallis averages 72 at 4, which, when you consider South Africa's top order is not that different to 3. Ponting averages 30 at 4.

Kallis has played 40% of his innings' at 3 and 50% of his innings' at 4.

Ponting has played 65% of his innings' at 3 and 30% of his innings at 6 and 7.

So it's equal-ish.

Ummmm . . . I'd question your understanding of the word "equal" , but I remember the "hearsay" thread so I'll let it pass . . .

Take out the Zim/Bang stats.

HH_pink wrote:Kallis averages 58-odd away (remarkably close to his overall average!) while Ponting averages 51-odd away!

Not really, because I think the pitches in Australia are generally better for batting than in SA.

I'm more than happy to talk about Jacky and Punter in the same breathe. I think Jacky's only weakness is that he can get bogged down sometimes but I'd have him in my top 7 if was an Australian, any day of the week.