Re: Ricky Ponting vs Jacques Kallis.

by Lara Lara Laughs Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:19 pm

tac wrote:
Lara Lara Laughs wrote:But as we've said - Kallis has played at 3 for nearly half his career and at 4 for the other half. And Ponting has played lower down the order for over a third of his career.

Combine that with South Africa's much weaker top order and that argument is an irrelevance in this debate.

But you keep ignoring that.

The strike rate argument is an important one but then there are arguments against it being a deciding factor in the debate.

But we aren't discussing who has been best . . . you initially asked about why people don't talk about Kallis as breaking the records instead of Ricky. So we are looking at the current state of things and what will happen in the next few years. That's why Ricky batting at 6 in the past or Kallis batting at 3 in the past has little importance to the debate.

Eh? I asked who's best as well.

And Eh? Even if we were talking about Kallis being a potential record breaker alone, my point that Kallis has a much weaker top order now and therefore batting at 4 is not dissimilar to batting at 3, is still pretty relevant in my book.

Additionally, the "runs at 3 are worth twice as much as runs at any other lower position" argument is wrong.

by Lara Lara Laughs Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:19 pm

tac wrote:
Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Batfink Begins wrote:
tac wrote:Pressure runs? Only Maka, who's farked in the head, is thowing that around.

Runs at 3 and at a much higher s/r tend to have a greater influence on winning a game than runs down the order at a slower s/r, is the argument.

Hmm, runs at 3. If the men above you who both average 50 and are one of the most prosperous opening partnerships in history, one of whom was immensely solid and the other dominating on his day and you have a damn solid number 4 and 5 near you it is quite immaterial. Saying that, I wouldn't like to put my flag on either of them. They are simply fine players who'd flourish in any team.

As well as two all time greats to put you in great positions before and after you bat. I've been trying to make this point all thread, but to no avail....

Haydos is a FTB and Hussey has only played 20 tests . . .now they're "all-time greats"? Boy you guys change your tune quickly . . .

I'm talking about Warne and McGrath....

by Eric Air Emu Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:20 pm

skully wrote:
Eric Air Emu wrote:You've also got to factor in Ricky's record score on the c*nt index.
You were doing OK until that point, and then you let you 12 year old immaturity leak out.

Ok not put very eloquently but are you going to factor in the dignity with which someone represents their country into it? (This isn't just me questioning his on the field conduct it's half the Australian cricket watching population as well). Kallis seems to be a decent ambassador for the game all in all.

by Makaveli Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:28 pm

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Makaveli wrote:Ponting is the much superior bat, a player who can score a 100 off 140 balls is worth double than a player who scores a 100 off 240 balls, Ponting is also a big game player scores lots of runs in pressure situations.

Didn't do much in those "big game pressure situations" vs the Windies in the 90s. You know, when they had two great bowlers.

I'm not entirely sure but i don't think Kallis was too hot during the 90's vs the stronger attacks either, you guys missed the point about pressure situations, there have been numerous occasions where Ponting has come out to bat when Hayden & Langer have fallen early and he's gone on to smash a century another thing is it just takes one early wicket and Ponting has to come out and face the new ball.

If you don't think he's good under pressure just go watch the WC finals, numerous tests against SA in SA, vs SL home and away and ofcourse against Eng esp that knock at Old Trafford.

At the end of the day i would prefer the guy who walks in at 3 and takes the game away in a matter of a session than the guy who comes in at four and scores a century over 2 sessions.

Not taking anything away from Kallis i think he is a fine bat just not good as Ponting.

by Makaveli Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:31 pm

tac you tosser i think you can work out what "Ricky Ponting VsJacques Kallis" is supposed to mean.

by tac Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:35 pm

Makaveli wrote:tac you tosser i think you can work out what "Ricky Ponting VsJacques Kallis" is supposed to mean.

Go back and read what LLL was asking. It wasn't a straight up comparison, but why people talk about Ponting as breaking the records but not Kallis, no?

by tac Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:36 pm

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
tac wrote:
Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Batfink Begins wrote:
tac wrote:Pressure runs? Only Maka, who's farked in the head, is thowing that around.

Runs at 3 and at a much higher s/r tend to have a greater influence on winning a game than runs down the order at a slower s/r, is the argument.

Hmm, runs at 3. If the men above you who both average 50 and are one of the most prosperous opening partnerships in history, one of whom was immensely solid and the other dominating on his day and you have a damn solid number 4 and 5 near you it is quite immaterial. Saying that, I wouldn't like to put my flag on either of them. They are simply fine players who'd flourish in any team.

As well as two all time greats to put you in great positions before and after you bat. I've been trying to make this point all thread, but to no avail....

Haydos is a FTB and Hussey has only played 20 tests . . .now they're "all-time greats"? Boy you guys change your tune quickly . . .

I'm talking about Warne and McGrath....

That makes even less sense . . . .

by Lara Lara Laughs Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:43 pm

Nope. I think you'll find it makes perfect sense.

by tac Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:44 pm

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Nope. I think you'll find it makes perfect sense.

That's just hearsay . . .

by Lara Lara Laughs Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:56 pm

Makaveli wrote:
Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Makaveli wrote:Ponting is the much superior bat, a player who can score a 100 off 140 balls is worth double than a player who scores a 100 off 240 balls, Ponting is also a big game player scores lots of runs in pressure situations.

Didn't do much in those "big game pressure situations" vs the Windies in the 90s. You know, when they had two great bowlers.

I'm not entirely sure but i don't think Kallis was too hot during the 90's vs the stronger attacks either, you guys missed the point about pressure situations, there have been numerous occasions where Ponting has come out to bat when Hayden & Langer have fallen early and he's gone on to smash a century another thing is it just takes one early wicket and Ponting has to come out and face the new ball.

If you don't think he's good under pressure just go watch the WC finals, numerious tests against SA in SA, vs SL home and away and ofcourse against Eng esp that knock at Old Trafford.

At the end of the day i would prefer the guy who walks in at 3 and takes the game away in a matter of a session than the guy who comes in at four and scores a century over 2 sessions.

Not taking anything away from Kallis i think he is a fine bat just not good as Ponting.

...Smashed a century in the knowledge that if he didn't, someone else probably would. And even if no-one else did, he can bowl Glen and Shane all day tomorrow and still end up with a lead. Not that much pressure to be honest.

I'd probably accept that Ponting is slightly better than Kallis at batting. But only very very slightly. The notion that he's "worth double" is a complete joke, and you know it.

by JGK Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:57 pm

It's pretty simple, Kallis isn't feared by good opposition sides.

by tac Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:57 pm

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Makaveli wrote:
Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Makaveli wrote:Ponting is the much superior bat, a player who can score a 100 off 140 balls is worth double than a player who scores a 100 off 240 balls, Ponting is also a big game player scores lots of runs in pressure situations.

Didn't do much in those "big game pressure situations" vs the Windies in the 90s. You know, when they had two great bowlers.

I'm not entirely sure but i don't think Kallis was too hot during the 90's vs the stronger attacks either, you guys missed the point about pressure situations, there have been numerous occasions where Ponting has come out to bat when Hayden & Langer have fallen early and he's gone on to smash a century another thing is it just takes one early wicket and Ponting has to come out and face the new ball.

If you don't think he's good under pressure just go watch the WC finals, numerious tests against SA in SA, vs SL home and away and ofcourse against Eng esp that knock at Old Trafford.

At the end of the day i would prefer the guy who walks in at 3 and takes the game away in a matter of a session than the guy who comes in at four and scores a century over 2 sessions.

Not taking anything away from Kallis i think he is a fine bat just not good as Ponting.

...Smashed a century in the knowledge that if he didn't, someone else probably would. And even if no-one else did, he can bowl Glen and Shane all day tomorrow and still end up with a lead. Not that much pressure to be honest.

I'd probably accept that Ponting is slightly better than Kallis at batting. But only very very slightly. The notion that he's "worth double" is a complete joke, and you know it.

No one said he's worth double . . .

by Lara Lara Laughs Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:59 pm

Mak did....

by Lara Lara Laughs Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:00 am

JGK wrote:It's pretty simple, Kallis isn't feared by good opposition sides.

That's rubbish. I'm terrified of what Kallis is going to do to us this summer. And I bet England's management are devising ways of bowling to him. Opposition sides know that if you get Kallis early, you've usually got South Africa.

by The One Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:01 am

JGK wrote:It's pretty simple, Kallis isn't feared by good opposition sides.

while reserving judgement on who is better for a few more years, that is a joke. kallis is one of the best out there, certainly top 5 today, and any team would prefer he was not batting against them. if you mean by fear that he wont change the match in a session, then maybe, but hardly any test match is decided in a session

by Makaveli Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:01 am

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Mak did....

Maybe i did over exaggerate, but i feel scoring 2x faster is a huge advantage, i know who i would have in my team if i had a choice.

by JGK Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:08 am

WHile that may be right about getting him early, the guy could bat for a day and SAf might still not score 400 in an innings.

I guess I can only go on how I feel when my team plays other teams - players like Dravid and Kallis are monumental but I genuinely don't fear them. I would be more worried about a team with Pietersen (and of course Lara or Tendulkar) in it than Kallis.

by Lara Lara Laughs Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:15 am

Makaveli wrote:
Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Mak did....

Maybe i did over exaggerate, but i feel scoring 2x faster is a huge advantage, i know who i would have in my team if i had a choice.

He doesn't score 2x faster. He scores 13 runs per 100 faster. You can't just selectively pick the few times where Ponting has scored a fast hundred and then compare them to the few times that Kallis has scored very slow hundreds and then use that as the basis for an argument. Overall, over all the runs they've scored, Ponting's strike rate is 13 higher than Kallis's, not twice as fast. Nowhere near.

Briefly going over Kallis's record, most of his hundreds are scored at a strike rate of around 50-55, which, 90% of the time is just as effective as someone scoring at a sr of 60-65.

As TO says, matches are very rarely decided in a session, anyway.

by Makaveli Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:17 am

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Makaveli wrote:
Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Mak did....

Maybe i did over exaggerate, but i feel scoring 2x faster is a huge advantage, i know who i would have in my team if i had a choice.

He doesn't score 2x faster. He scores 13 runs per 100 faster. You can't just selectively pick the few times where Ponting has scored a fast hundred and then compare them to the few times that Kallis has scored very slow hundreds and then use that as the basis for an argument. Overall, over all the runs they've scored, Ponting's strike rate is 13 higher than Kallis's, not twice as fast. Nowhere near.

Briefly going over Kallis's record, most of his hundreds are scored at a strike rate of around 50-55, which, 90% of the time is just as effective as someone scoring at a sr of 60-65.

As TO says, matches are very rarely decided in a session, anyway.

Over 100 tests that's a massive difference.

by Makaveli Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:21 am

A career s/r of 60+ is a huge indication that a player scores very quickly, between 50-59 quick and 45-50 slow but <45 VERY slow.

Sorry meant to put 45-50 average.

by Lara Lara Laughs Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:21 am

Eh? The way you play in one match doesn't have any effect on 100 Tests. It only affects the one match.

And yes, 13 runs is a significant difference but like people have been saying a) Ponting has a much better side and it's easier to score faster in a dominant side and b) it's not a big enough difference to rate one a lot higher than the other.

Lara has a strike rate higher than both of them - 61. Tendulkar is estimated to have a strike rate of about 52. That's a difference of 9. You can't hear anyone saying that Lara is miles better than Sachin because of it.

by JGK Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:25 am

No one is arguing that Ponting is miles better than Kallis either - just that the difference is clear cut.

by Lara Lara Laughs Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:28 am

Mak is...

The difference may be clear cut but I'd say it's very close. A bit like L vs T.

by The One Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:28 am

taking their careers as a whole one would have to plump with ponting without doubt as a batsman. my only concern with ponting is his huge differential between home and away averages (62 vs 51) as compared to kallis (57 vs 58 )

by Makaveli Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:28 am

Ok let's make things more simple, say they both face 200 balls each going by their records Kallis would score 80 and Ponting 120, now make your choice.

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