Is the England team set for freefall?

It looks it to me. First up we have had an appalling record away from home which won't get any better for many years as I see it. Next Anderson and Broad are clearly in their twilights. Then you've got a once world class opener set to retire also past his best by a margin. Lower middle order looks as safe as a rabbit in headlights. For me with a heavy heart we look incredibly ordinary but I'd love to hear your view. Our bowlers look toothless on good pitches too. This summer if we get the conditions right it might paper over the valleys but don't hold your breath.

It’s not impossible that we could be ranked 7th or 8th in a couple of years’ time.

We’ll probably always be reasonably competitive at home in this day and age, as overseas batsmen are generally poor against the swinging ball. But we don’t have a spinner, we don’t have any openers, we have hit and miss all-rounders, we probably have two or three batsmen of Test quality. And losing can become a habit.

If India come over here and turn us over this summer (which is by no means a certainty) then it may be time for a proper clear-out. Identify the young players to take us forward. Bring in a captain who isn’t expected to be the number one batsman. Maybe even go more radical and build it around the nucleus of the successful one-day side? Maybe we can take the game to another level and make 5 runs an over the norm at Test level. Worth a try if all else fails.

England could turn out a County 2nd XI and still be competitive in England, such is the extent of trouble touring teams have with the movement of the Duke.

Away form is always a dubious thing for all sides, except those of legendary status (e.g 80s Windies, 95-07 Aussies).

With talent like Root, Bairstow, Anderson and Broad, England will be OK for a while yet, IMHO.

Doubt It Skully. lady Di is in dotage and is only competitive when conditions favour him. Jimmeh is a champ but will struggle outside of home decks. The Fruit is a bit bruised and may need a break to get the hunger back. Malan looks ok but is a bit long in the tooth.

Their best player may face an extended period on the sidelines.

Maybe they should revisit batsmen like Ballance

I think whit is on the money this time, England struggling, will be heavily reliant on Root and Bairstwo, with the support of newcomers in the next year or three. Woakes , Curran, and Overton may become the nucleus. Moeen Ali needs to moved on promptly.

I expect England to be hard to beat in Ashes 2019.

probably (home series), but it's likely dark times are in store for them after that

skully wrote:I expect England to be hard to beat in Ashes 2019.

Prolly right. Two very ordinary teams and I expect given the obvious weaknesses in our batting the Poms will exact a modicum of revenge.

Michael Vaughan had an article in our press today basically saying that there is too much emphasis on white ball cricket and that red ball failures don't suffer the same fate. He intimated that he wanted a more suitable test coach such as Gillespie.

Red wrote:Michael Vaughan had an article in our press today basically saying that there is too much emphasis on white ball cricket and that red ball failures don't suffer the same fate. He intimated that he wanted a more suitable test coach such as Gillespie.

Sage from Mr Vaughan.

Red wrote:Michael Vaughan had an article in our press today basically saying that there is too much emphasis on white ball cricket and that red ball failures don't suffer the same fate. He intimated that he wanted a more suitable test coach such as Gillespie.

You're looking very agreeable these days, Red.

Maybe we should just concentrate on winning the World Cup for the time being - we’ll never get a better opportunity - then get the Test side back on track after that.

So essentially no reliable openers, lower middle order is fragile and anyone's guess who gets in there at present, 2 medium-fast bowlers past their best, no spinner, an all rounder due in court soon, it looks as bad as it could from here. Stranger things have happened so we might win at home this year but i think India will beat us, they are simply better than us imo. Time will tell. I so hope we don't wangle a draw from the current game, NZ deserve to win it.

whitburn wrote:It looks it to me. First up we have had an appalling record away from home which won't get any better for many years as I see it. Next Anderson and Broad are clearly in their twilights. Then you've got a once world class opener set to retire also past his best by a margin. Lower middle order looks as safe as a rabbit in headlights. For me with a heavy heart we look incredibly ordinary but I'd love to hear your view. Our bowlers look toothless on good pitches too. This summer if we get the conditions right it might paper over the valleys but don't hold your breath.

Yes, in short. We're on the way out.

Our "best" batsmen can't play spin, pace or swing. Fact. Our next generation of batsmen have just lost every game in the West Indies on slow, dead pitches, barely mustering a run between them. Fact. The under 19s got bundled out of the WC for 96 by a leg spinner bowling standard leg breaks on a flattie. The lack of even competent batsmen isn't a situation that is going to be resolved soon - perhaps not in years.

The millions spent by the ECB on their shiny Academy (or Performance Centre, or whatever it's called) has been an utter failure.

The "Elite fast bowling programme" has yielded only identikit 80mph trundlers and a raft of back injuries.

The "Elite spin bowling programme" hasn't been able to come up with even ONE spinner worthy of the name since Graeme Swann retired five years ago. Five years! What have they been up to in that time? How many youngsters have they gotten their hands on and molded into absolutely nothing of any worth?

Andrew Strauss retired six years ago, and we haven't been able to find a replacement opener since. When Cook goes, we won't have anyone up top.

It's a joke. We haven't even embraced mediocrity. It's not even as good as that. We've just settled for... shite. With a shrug.

The only saving grace is that Test cricket might be retired before we fall all the way to the bottom of the pile.

Can we add Australia to whitburn's freefall list?

Aye Skully, but they are always funnier.

Too many young players with a sense of entitlement. None of them battle-hardened by having to perform just to maintain a place in their county side.

Basil wrote:Too many young players with a sense of entitlement. None of them battle-hardened by having to perform just to  maintain a place in their county side.

Well, if anything we’ve now pretty much exhausted the pool of pampered “chosen ones”, and now we’re down to picking county journeymen who have had to work for it, but aren’t really quite good enough.

If we are set for freefall then it shouldn't be a long journey to impact as we're pretty close to the ground as it is.

Joe Root needs to take a long hard look at himself. I thought the penny had dropped in the first test when he batted at three. He has now scuttled back to four. He has to grasp the nettle and bat at three to stop a poor start degenerating into a calamity.

Basil wrote:Joe Root needs to take a long hard look at himself. I thought the penny had dropped in the first test when he batted at three. He has now scuttled back to four. He has to grasp the nettle and bat at three to stop a poor start degenerating into a calamity.

I don’t think Root at 3 is the answer at all. It just means we’re wasting our best batsman by not having him in his preferred position, as well as exposing him to the new ball through having a weak opening pair. If your best batsman wants to go in at 5 or 6 I agree that would be “hiding away” but to have your top man at 4 is perfectly reasonable.

We need to identify genuine, specialist top three batsmen, and let them develop into the role. We could, say, have a “wildcard” aggressive opener alongside a couple of more typical top order players. Root, Bairstow and Stokes plus another specialist batsman/all-rounder is the basis of a top quality middle order.

beamer wrote:

Basil wrote:Joe Root needs to take a long hard look at himself. I thought the penny had dropped in the first test when he batted at three. He has now scuttled back to four. He has to grasp the nettle and bat at three to stop a poor start degenerating into a calamity.

I don’t think Root at 3 is the answer at all. It just means we’re wasting our best batsman by not having him in his preferred position, as well as exposing him to the new ball through having a weak opening pair. If your best batsman wants to go in at 5 or 6 I agree that would be “hiding away” but to have your top man at 4 is perfectly reasonable.

We need to identify genuine, specialist top three batsmen, and let them develop into the role. We could, say, have a “wildcard” aggressive opener alongside a couple of more typical top order players. Root, Bairstow and Stokes plus another specialist batsman/all-rounder is the basis of a top quality middle order.

I think you know I'm in Basil's camp re: Root beamer. I don't see a decent number 3 out there - and God knows we've been looking for a long time.

Without ending up with a super stodge opening pair that do not advance the scoreboard at all I'd suggest we don't need an aggressive guy at 1 or 2 as Root, Bairstow, Stokes are all more than capable of scoring very quickly. And if we went down my ill-thought through route of chucking Buttler into the mix at 7 then run rate shouldn't ever be an issue. All that said the opening positions should be occupied by the best players available - be they fast scorers or slow. But now is surely the time to move on from Cook and let a new opening pair establish try to establish themselves. Your previous point re: Cook inadvertently being an obstacle to his inexperienced partner(s) makes this need even more pressing.

I’d argue for an opening trio in effect...

Not sure about the clamour for Buttler, he barely plays red ball cricket any more.

Root began his FC career and Test career opening. He has 3 Test hundreds and 10 fifties batting in the top three.

He also has 7 ODI hundreds and 17 fifties @ 58 batting at three in the shorter form.

The idea that he needs to be protected from the new ball is nonsense. He's got the game to handle it. As a former opener who has Test hundreds opening and at three, who the hell else is better suited to the role?

What he needs to do is step up and take on the responsibility of filling the key position in the batting order and not expect a rookie who doesn't even bat near the top three for his county to shield him like a sacrificial lamb.  

I bet if they were given the opportunity, Stokes or Bairstow would happily give three a go. So why not precious Joe?

It’s not about “giving it a go”, it’s about where we can maximise the runs scored by our best batsman. If he would, say, average 40 batting 3 and average 50 batting 4, then we have to find those extra runs from elsewhere.

In football, do you put your best striker out wide because you can’t find a player for that position? Well, a few England managers of the past might have done I suppose...