Re: * The great Freddie Flintoff debate *

by Growler Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:00

Merlin - you like the look of vilkrangs XI. I agree it could be a lot worse.

My only concern with Strauss as skiper straight off, is that I fear it will distractfrom his batting - good as this last knock was, he still doesn't look totally comfortable. Maybe vice captain to Collingwood?

Have to say I was a bit surprised you didn't suggest Shah rather than Bell Smile

by JKLever Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:03

Growler wrote:Merlin - you like the look of vilkrangs XI. I agree it could be a lot worse.

My only concern with Strauss as skiper straight off, is that I fear it will distractfrom his batting - good as this last knock was, he still doesn't look totally comfortable. Maybe vice captain to Collingwood?

Have to say I was a bit surprised you didn't suggest Shah rather than Bell

Strauss being captain didn't seem a problem against Pakistan. He had a good series with the bat if I recall...

by Basil Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:06

JKLever wrote:
Growler wrote:Merlin - you like the look of vilkrangs XI. I agree it could be a lot worse.

My only concern with Strauss as skiper straight off, is that I fear it will distractfrom his batting - good as this last knock was, he still doesn't look totally comfortable. Maybe vice captain to Collingwood?

Have to say I was a bit surprised you didn't suggest Shah rather than Bell

Strauss being captain didn't seem a problem against Pakistan. He had a good series with the bat if I recall...

But he was an entrenched member of the side at the time - he will be back to square one if he were to go the home NZ series without a decent score.

by LeFromage Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:07

JKLever wrote:
Dello wrote:Flintoff's only going to come back as part of a five man attack. I think people are dreaming if they expect anything else.

Yeah probably. Just think when you have to pick a team around 1 player because he's not quite fit enough you're always doing things half and half.

It's not even just Flintoff's fitness. Have a look at Ryan Sidebottom in this innings. He's carried the bowling all tour, starting with the T20s, then the ODIs, in the Test series he's bowled more overs than anyone else - and finally, after another heroic stint in the first innings, he looks totally out on his feet.

If this was a five Test series, he'd have no chance of making it to the end.

A compromise has to made somewhere - the cricket boards aren't going to change their scheduling - and I think spreading the load is the only way you're going to keep your seamers in any kind of condition for a period of time. Either that or the rotation policy favoured by that twat Giles Clarke, which I don't think anyone feels is a satisfactory solution to player burn-out.

by LeFromage Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:10

Basil wrote:
JKLever wrote:
Growler wrote:Merlin - you like the look of vilkrangs XI. I agree it could be a lot worse.

My only concern with Strauss as skiper straight off, is that I fear it will distractfrom his batting - good as this last knock was, he still doesn't look totally comfortable. Maybe vice captain to Collingwood?

Have to say I was a bit surprised you didn't suggest Shah rather than Bell

Strauss being captain didn't seem a problem against Pakistan. He had a good series with the bat if I recall...

But he was an entrenched member of the side at the time - he will be back to square one if he were to go the home NZ series without a decent score.

You're right. But then, Vaughan's going to be going into it off the back of a winter with no hundreds and a series average against NZ of 20.

And Collingwood (a potential captaincy replacement) hasn't scored a hundred for nearly a year (WI, early last summer).

So they're all in a similar boat.

by Growler Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:13

He did indeed JK ......... but after that he went downhill so quickly it was painful to watch.

By his previous high standards, he had a truly awful 2007, and I'm not yet convinced he's back to his best by any means. Hopefully his confidence will have had a major boost this week.

by JKLever Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:13

Aye, don't disagree. He'd need to recover some form to even be considered.

Back to Flintoff - just seen the highlights of the 2nd match of his comeback v Yorks on lancstv and still looked to be bowling decent pace taking his wicket with a lifter.

Lancashire coach Mike Watkinson was happy with the progress of his talisman Flintoff.

"I suppose he's bowling at 70% at the moment - he's not supposed to be anything like 100% - but his rhythm is good, his confidence is good and it all looks fluid," he said.

"This is his first pre-season for a while. Everything has been full match intensity all the time in previous comebacks.

"The thing that helps here is that he's not building up to anything in particular - there's no deadline.

"We're just looking to play him as an all-rounder in our first County Championship match this season and then let's build on that."

Sounds good, maybe the 1st test will come too soon for Fred but with a good few championship games behind him maybe the last test of the series is more realistic?

by LeFromage Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:17

First Test is over a month away, isn't it?

If he's bowling now, chances are he's well on target to be fit by then.

But, as mentioned previously, were they to select him, they'd have to drop one of their untouchable batsmen (Collingwood is probably the most vulnerable), so a decent fudge would be to leave Flintoff alone until the SA series and then make a decision.

by Growler Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:19

JKLever wrote:Aye, don't disagree. He'd need to recover some form to even be considered.

Back to Flintoff - just seen the highlights of the 2nd match of his comeback v Yorks on lancstv and still looked to be bowling decent pace taking his wicket with a lifter.

Lancashire coach Mike Watkinson was happy with the progress of his talisman Flintoff.

"I suppose he's bowling at 70% at the moment - he's not supposed to be anything like 100% - but his rhythm is good, his confidence is good and it all looks fluid," he said.

"This is his first pre-season for a while. Everything has been full match intensity all the time in previous comebacks.

"The thing that helps here is that he's not building up to anything in particular - there's no deadline.

"We're just looking to play him as an all-rounder in our first County Championship match this season and then let's build on that."

I don't think we need him against NZ.

For me - let him have plenty of games for Lancashire, and guarantee his fitness for the Sith Effricans later in summer.

Sounds good, maybe the 1st test will come too soon for Fred but with a good few championship games behind him maybe the last test of the series is more realistic?

by Basil Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:19

Dello wrote:First Test is over a month away, isn't it?

If he's bowling now, chances are he's well on target to be fit by then.

But, as mentioned previously, were they to select him, they'd have to drop one of their untouchable batsmen (Collingwood is probably the most vulnerable), so a decent fudge would be to leave Flintoff alone until the SA series and then make a decision.

On stats alone (both winter series) Cook is the most vulnerable

by LeFromage Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:23

You're not wrong - I think I mentioned somewhere else that I thought Cook might get the hook this summer - but realistically, having already demoted Collingwood to number six, the chances are that he and Flintoff would be seen as a straight swap without disrupting the batting order.

by Merlin Tue 25 Mar 2008, 20:44

Strauss being captain didn't seem a problem against Pakistan. He had a good series with the bat if I recall...

Yes he did, despite the fact that Pakistan is never the easiest of tours.

Growler -

Well spotted !! Wink

re. Bell - much as I castigate the guy, I have never denied he has talent.
But what he lacks is bottle when in a scrap - which Shah has pots of.
iron that out - give him the mental strength, cut out the off-stump prod and I reckon he'll do well.
However, for me the sweetest irony would be seeing Shah replace Vaughan (purely on MERIT) whilst Strauss takes over the captaincy.

Maybe early days yet - but I do see it coming.

by Growler Tue 25 Mar 2008, 22:11

I couldn't agree more with your sentiments about mental muscle - it's lacking to a certain extent in all our batsmen. How many times have we seen all of them at one time or other gift their wickets ... too bloody many.

What wouldn't we give to have any 3 of the current crop in the mould of Atherton, Stewart and Nasser? They put such a high price on their wicket, it was rare indeed to hear a commentator utter the words "stupid shot" when any of them were dismissed.

Nowadays you get the feeling that everyone feels they should score 40 odd a session - but the pitch, conditions and opposition bowling don't always allow it. If only they'll be patient, the scoring chances will come sooner or later - but not if they go after balls better left alone.

by LeFromage Tue 25 Mar 2008, 22:16

We've never recovered from losing Thorpe.

He'd still be the best batsman in this line-up.

by Guest Tue 25 Mar 2008, 22:33

Growler wrote:

What wouldn't we give to have any 3 of the current crop in the mould of Atherton, Stewart and Nasser? They put such a high price on their wicket, it was rare indeed to hear a commentator utter the words "stupid shot" when any of them were dismissed.

Yeah, they were just unlucky to always have to face the likes of McGrath, Warne, Pollock, Donald, Waqar, Wasim, Walsh, Ambrose etc.

I'd be surpirsed if any of our current line up (with the exception of KP) would average over 30 if they played during the 90s.

by Growler Tue 25 Mar 2008, 22:55

Yes I agree JD.

I don't think the 05 Ashes would have been so tense had he played rather than Bell - but having scored 70, 65* and 162* in his only innings to date - it wud have been harsh to drop the lad averaging 297 Very Happy

.

by Merlin Tue 25 Mar 2008, 22:59

Growler wrote:Yes I agree JD.

I don't think the 05 Ashes would have been so tense had he played rather than Bell - but having scored 70, 65* and 162* in his only innings to date - it wud have been harsh to drop the lad averaging 297 .

Who's average .... and against whom?

by LeFromage Tue 25 Mar 2008, 23:00

Bell's.

WIs and two games against Bangladesh.

by Growler Tue 25 Mar 2008, 23:02

vilkrang wrote:
Growler wrote:

What wouldn't we give to have any 3 of the current crop in the mould of Atherton, Stewart and Nasser? They put such a high price on their wicket, it was rare indeed to hear a commentator utter the words "stupid shot" when any of them were dismissed.
Yeah, they were just unlucky to always have to face the likes of McGrath, Warne, Pollock, Donald, Waqar, Wasim, Walsh, Ambrose etc.

I'd be surpirsed if any of our current line up (with the exception of KP) would average over 30 if they played during the 90s.

Oh I think they probably would ....... maybe around 35-37. Its accepted they don't lack talent, just patience to see off the really dangerous bowlers.

More significantly, I think the three 90s stalwarts would have much higher averages, were they batting against todays piemen. I'm not sure there's anyone bowling today (no-one springs to mind anyhow) - anywhere near as good as those you've mentioned.

by Merlin Tue 25 Mar 2008, 23:22

Dello wrote:Bell's.

WIs and two games against Bangladesh.

Aye, I forgot it were the Bellhop ...
And for that Thorpey had to give way?!!
FFS (I said that at the time too!!)

by holcs Tue 25 Mar 2008, 23:23

Golden boy.. always had been and always will be despite p1ss poor performances!!!

by Growler Tue 25 Mar 2008, 23:39

Merlin wrote:
Dello wrote:Bell's.

WIs and two games against Bangladesh.

Aye, I forgot it were the Bellhop ...
And for that Thorpey had to give way?!!
FFS (I said that at the time too!!)

No Merls ....... Thorpey lost his place for Kevin Pieterson to make his debut.

I'm not saying Bell deserved to play ahead of Thorpey (he didn't really) ..... but as I said - would have been bloody hard on him to be dropped after 3 tests with 2 halves and a ton. Never mind the opposition ... he had the chance and filled his boots he couldn't do any more.

by Merlin Tue 25 Mar 2008, 23:50

Actually, I seem to recall (from Thorpes book?) that Thorpey's P60 was signed even as he played his 100th test -
Seems the management had no intention of playing him in the 2005 Ashes.

Again, I'll purse me lips on whom the puppeteer was suspected to be - for 'fear' of reprisals from a certain forum member !! Wink

by Growler Wed 26 Mar 2008, 00:06

That wouldn't surprise me ... Thorpe was a fully signed up member of the Awkward Squad.

Harsh as it would have been, Bell could hardly beef about being 12th man for the Ashes series - at least to begin with. Had Thorpey or KP had 4 rotten innings at Lords and Brum, he could have been recalled, while still being around the squad for the summer.

by Merlin Wed 26 Mar 2008, 00:14

Precisely.
But the captain (predominantly, even then) and the coach wanted to bring youth in.
Bell arrived and averaged 11 after batting for 10 innings !
KP excelled - especially at the Oval .... the good guys won the Ashes.

Good Times.

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