West Indies v England, 1st Test, Kingston, Feb 4-8

Some rare common ground for English and Australian supporters. Both our teams are going sh!thouse at the moment.

beamer wrote:

skully wrote:Aye. Cheers Dello, just caught the lowlights on Fox News. Some pretty uninterested looking shots. KP'd and Freddy's wind woofs looked ordinary.

To be fair to Fredalo, he just had a slog because he knew he only had Harmison and Panesar left for company. He was the only one who really showed any ambition or stickability.

Yeah, just checked the match report and it seems Fred had hung around a long time to try to right the ship. I was basing my comments merely on having seen his dismissal on the news.

FFS.

Well played the Windies, yadda, yadda, yadda.

However, for lame results against inept opposition I believe this is England's worst result in their history.

There you go . . . gauntlet duly laid - provide me with evidence of one that was worse.

This is why KP wanted a shake up.

Overruled - instead all we got was Harmlessone replacing the wrong spinner - because that's what the clique demanded.

This has been coming since the toys appeared from the cot by the armful when Collingwood (quite rightly) was dropped from the side last summer. The fact that he was recalled for nothing more than peer pressure says it all about the self serving inbred nature of Team England.

Wholesale changes needed, but can't happen due to the limited options on a tour. The Windies are shit, so we'll still win the series. However, few lessons will be learnt, and we'll be visiting this low again in the months and years to come as the shitfest continues.

Our opportunity to break the spell disappeared as the captain's armband was wrenched away from the only bloke willing and able to try to change it.

Enjoy it when we win this series, it's as good as it's going to get.

Big_Bad_Bob wrote:FFS.

Well played the Windies, yadda, yadda, yadda.

However, for lame results against inept opposition I believe this is England's worst result in their history.

There you go . . . gauntlet duly laid - provide me with evidence of one that was worse.

This is why KP wanted a shake up.

Overruled - instead all we got was Harmlessone replacing the wrong spinner - because that's what the clique demanded.

This has been coming since the toys appeared from the cot by the armful when Collingwood (quite rightly) was dropped from the side last summer. The fact that he was recalled for nothing more than peer pressure says it all about the self serving inbred nature of Team England.

Wholesale changes needed, but can't happen due to the limited options on a tour. The Windies are shit, so we'll still win the series. However, few lessons will be learnt, and we'll be visiting this low again in the months and years to come as the shitfest continues.

Our opportunity to break the spell disappeared as the captain's armband was wrenched away from the only bloke willing and able to try to change it.

Enjoy it when we win this series, it's as good as it's going to get.

The "shake up" KP wanted involved recalling the former captain with no form to speak of in a couple of years, remember. Although if this tour continues like this then perhaps we should give him a go in full control of the setup and let him pick the team and coaches, see if he can put his money where his mouth is, anything's worth a try!

I can't see us winning the series from here. Remember to do that we can't lose any of the remaining three matches. I'd say a 2-2 is the best we can hope for and 4-0 isn't out of the question. I wouldn't back this lot to beat Bangladesh right now.

The antithesis of a good birthday present BBB. Commisserations man.

I mentioned this previously, Bob, but Pietersen's "shake-up" was extremely vague. We never found out exactly what he was ready to change other than the coaches.

What we do know was that he wanted Michael Vaughan back - and had previously gone on record as saying there was no-one in county cricket who was better than Bell or Collingwood.

And, of course, it was he was the driving force behind Harmison's recall.

Suspect it would've been more of the same, just with a different spin on it.

Thank you England. Thank you so much

Meh - word is he took the decision on MPV with reasonable understanding.

The crap in the media on that score was a smokescreen to hide the more important issues that lay behind it.

To think that KP would have merely wanted to change the coach in the 'blueprint' he was asked to provide is laughable.

As skipper he had to back the players in his side while they were there, but to assume he'd still permanently want passengers like Bell, Colly and Monty on the basis of him trying to play the best hand with the cards he was dealt at the time, is frankly illogical.

I thought the West Indies were a lot better than people gave them credit for. And England a lot worse probably. Chris Gayle could well be one of the most influential cricketers in the world right now - his performances in South Africa and New Zealand were immense and again here he was brilliant - both with his wonderful audacious century (who else in the world bar maybe Sehwag would have the nerve to launch the 2nd ball of Flintoff's new ball spell for 6!?) and his captaincy - despite all Sabina Park's past history he realised that the spinners would be key.

The West Indies are on the rise again - which is excellent news for cricket.

As for England - i'm kind of glad in a way, the complacency and arrogance that has held the side back has been fully exposed. It is clear that Pietersen was right, and a shame that none of the ECB hierarchy and selectors are gonna be held to account for what has happened.

Some basic changes to the team: Bell clearly as to be dropped for the foreseeable future, and Shah given assurances for the rest of the series.

I would also fly Rob Key out as cover, to remind Alastair Cook that he needs to start showing more than promise.

The batting line-up with Flintoff at 6 is weak - it has lead to muddled selections like Prior (a shocking wicket-keeper who can bat) and Broad (a promising bowler, not ready for test cricket in 2008 but who again can bat a bit). I would consider picking 6 specialist batsmen with Flintoff at 7. Another alternative is Adil Rashid, a class lower order bat, spring heeled backward point and promising leg-spinner.

Harmison must surely be dropped.

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All that said, England WILL win at least one Test this series. Pietersen is probably the best batsman in the world at the moment and plenty of the other players are talented. The West Indies have some fine players - Gayle, Chanderpaul, Edwards & Taylor, but while the likes of D. Smith, Marshall and Powell are still in the side they still have glaring weaknesses. I think the series will ebb and flow. West Indies, like England, are delicate and prone to collapse or lose the initiative at times.

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Finally, what a day! Sheff Wednesday's first double over United for 95 years! Even the death of English cricket won't put a dampener on my party tonight!

oh England!

Gary 111 wrote:The batting line-up with Flintoff at 6 is weak - it has lead to muddled selections like Prior (a shocking wicket-keeper who can bat) and Broad (a promising bowler, not ready for test cricket in 2008 but who again can bat a bit). I would consider picking 6 specialist batsmen with Flintoff at 7. Another alternative is Adil Rashid, a class lower order bat, spring heeled backward point and promising leg-spinner.

Our bowlers aren't good enough or consistent enough to play a 4-man attack. Our batsmen aren't good enough to play a specialist keeper. Therefore we have to play a 5-man attack with a batsman-keeper. I wouldn't consider changing the balance of the side, just enough changes in personnel to really shake things up.

Big_Bad_Bob wrote:Meh - word is he took the decision on MPV with reasonable understanding.

The crap in the media on that score was a smokescreen to hide the more important issues that lay behind it.

To think that KP would have merely wanted to change the coach in the 'blueprint' he was asked to provide is laughable.

As skipper he had to back the players in his side while they were there, but to assume he'd still permanently want passengers like Bell, Colly and Monty on the basis of him trying to play the best hand with the cards he was dealt at the time, is frankly illogical.

Exactly, he's not going to publicly slate Bell. Would be bad captaincy & it would give Bell yet another excuse for being sh!t if he did.

But i'm sure he wanted him dropped. Then the ECB go and interview the likes of Bell, who surprise, suprise, turn on Pietersen... Turkeys not voting for Xmas.

Gary 111 wrote:

Finally, what a day! Sheff Wednesday's first double over United for 95 years! Even the death of English cricket won't put a dampener on my party tonight!

Aye - couldn't believe that!

Having followed Wednesday for a couple of seasons while I was in Sheffield in the early 90's, and lived in virtually the shadow of Bramall Lane for the second of them, I thought I knew enough about Sheffield football, and this had always seemed to me to be one of the more even rivalries in the game, with arguably the Owls having the edge over the Blades for much of the time.

Was amazed to find that not only was today their first double for 95 years, but also the first time Wednesday had won at Bramall Lane in 42 years!

beamer wrote:

Gary 111 wrote:The batting line-up with Flintoff at 6 is weak - it has lead to muddled selections like Prior (a shocking wicket-keeper who can bat) and Broad (a promising bowler, not ready for test cricket in 2008 but who again can bat a bit). I would consider picking 6 specialist batsmen with Flintoff at 7. Another alternative is Adil Rashid, a class lower order bat, spring heeled backward point and promising leg-spinner.

Our bowlers aren't good enough or consistent enough to play a 4-man attack. Our batsmen aren't good enough to play a specialist keeper. Therefore we have to play a 5-man attack with a batsman-keeper. I wouldn't consider changing the balance of the side, just enough changes in personnel to really shake things up.

Does Flintoff even qualify as a batsman at present? What is his average since he was recalled? We're effectively playing 5 specialist bowlers and only 5 batsmen (one of whom is Ian Bell so that's really 4), and we were bowled all out for 51!

I think with 4 specialist bowlers (preferably Flintoff, Sidebottom, Anderson & a spinner) they would be focused on doing their job. Rather than putting in half a shift and leaving the work for other to do (e.g. Harmison)...

Having Prior relieves pressure (all those byes) and effectively gives the opposition an extra batsman - as he's likely to drop a sitter more often than not. So any 'advantage' of the 5 bowler approach is lost.

I still maintain playing a specialist keeper is not too far removed from playing a specialist short leg, it's just a fielding position that requires a bit more practice than the others. You have to be worth your place with the bat these days, a few byes is neither here nor there.

With 4 specialist bowlers they ALL have to be world-class and rarely have a bad day, as if two of them don't perform you're down to two plus part-timers to take 20 wickets. And Anderson, Harmison etc. have about 4 bad matches in every 5.

Big_Bad_Bob wrote:

Gary 111 wrote:

Finally, what a day! Sheff Wednesday's first double over United for 95 years! Even the death of English cricket won't put a dampener on my party tonight!

Aye - couldn't believe that!

Having followed Wednesday for a couple of seasons while I was in Sheffield in the early 90's, and lived in virtually the shadow of Bramall Lane for the second of them, I thought I knew enough about Sheffield football, and this had always seemed to me to be one of the more even rivalries in the game, with arguably the Owls having the edge over the Blades for much of the time.

Was amazed to find that not only was today their first double for 95 years, but also the first time Wednesday had won at Bramall Lane in 42 years!

We almost did the double over them last year - 2-0 up at the Lane with 10 mins to go.

The strange thing about the 90s was that they were our bogey team, often we would be flying in the league and time and time again they would turn us over, despite always battling relegation at the time. In 91-92 we only finished about 5 points behind Leeds who won the league, and United did the double over us that year. The only time we ever beat them was in the FA Cup Semi at Wembley.

Before that we've often been in different leagues - Wednesday were top flight in the 60s & 80s, United in the 70s.

Still, an incredible stat.

Oh dear.

Gary 111 wrote: In 91-92 we only finished about 5 points behind Leeds who won the league...

Aye - remember it well. Wednesday were mathematically in the hunt for the title until the real last knockings of the season due to games in hand if I recall correctly.

The football at Hillsborough that season was a joy to watch.

beamer wrote:I still maintain playing a specialist keeper is not too far removed from playing a specialist short leg, it's just a fielding position that requires a bit more practice than the others. You have to be worth your place with the bat these days, a few byes is neither here nor there.

With 4 specialist bowlers they ALL have to be world-class and rarely have a bad day, as if two of them don't perform you're down to two plus part-timers to take 20 wickets. And Anderson, Harmison etc. have about 4 bad matches in every 5.

I think bad teams tend to hide behind the 5th bowler to try and cover their shortcomings. Its funny how Oz were so successful with 4 bowlers for 15 years, but since they've started fiddling about with Symonds / Watson / McDonald at 6 they've suddenly started becoming beatable.

Wicket-keeper - Prior has already lost us Test Series against Sri Lanka and India with his bungling. You can't give top quality batsmen 2nd chances, especially with our lack of strike bowlers. I honestly think having Foster (lets face it almost as good a bat anyway) would see a massive improvement in the side.

Remember a keeper gets 7 or 8 dismissals a match usually, a short leg usually only 1 or 2.

Gary 111 wrote:

beamer wrote:I still maintain playing a specialist keeper is not too far removed from playing a specialist short leg, it's just a fielding position that requires a bit more practice than the others. You have to be worth your place with the bat these days, a few byes is neither here nor there.

With 4 specialist bowlers they ALL have to be world-class and rarely have a bad day, as if two of them don't perform you're down to two plus part-timers to take 20 wickets. And Anderson, Harmison etc. have about 4 bad matches in every 5.

I think bad teams tend to hide behind the 5th bowler to try and cover their shortcomings. Its funny how Oz were so successful with 4 bowlers for 15 years, but since they've started fiddling about with Symonds / Watson / McDonald at 6 they've suddenly started becoming beatable.

Wicket-keeper - Prior has already lost us Test Series against Sri Lanka and India with his bungling. You can't give top quality batsmen 2nd chances, especially with our lack of strike bowlers. I honestly think having Foster (lets face it almost as good a bat anyway) would see a massive improvement in the side.

Remember a keeper gets 7 or 8 dismissals a match usually, a short leg usually only 1 or 2.

1. Surely Aus have started losing because the quality of player in their side has diminished rather than the system?

2. Dropping Prior who is one of the few actually averaging their '40' (if you understand lol) atm, would be folly. I think the keeper/bat is the least of our worries

Gary 111 wrote:I think bad teams tend to hide behind the 5th bowler to try and cover their shortcomings. Its funny how Oz were so successful with 4 bowlers for 15 years, but since they've started fiddling about with Symonds / Watson / McDonald at 6 they've suddenly started becoming beatable.

Two of the bowlers were Warne and McGrath. Rarely if ever had a bad game. When we find two bowlers of their quality and consistency I'll be happy for us to go with a 4-man attack.

Invader Zim wrote: Thank you England. Thank you so much

Nath wrote:oh England!

Paul Keating wrote:Oh dear.

This is cheaping Pommie bashing, FFS. Wheres Horrie.

skully wrote:Some rare common ground for English and Australian supporters. Both our teams are going sh!thouse at the moment.

Except your guys don't do 51 a.o., skully

PeterCS wrote:

skully wrote:Some rare common ground for English and Australian supporters. Both our teams are going sh!thouse at the moment.

Except your guys don't do 51 a.o., skully

Anything WI can do, I'm sure the Snoozers can match...

Invader Zim wrote: Thank you England. Thank you so much

See whatcha mean - our boys have really let yours off the hook.