Re: The EPL thread (I)

by doremi Wed 31 Oct 2007, 05:06

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
doremi wrote:Both short of a real class out and out striker.

Lampard - This has been done to death so I don't know why I'm bothering but..... Good player, always have agreed with that. But Gerrard's better than him. In Chelsea he has the luxury of Makelele and Co. doing most of the dirty work. For England, he has played most times with Gerrard and they really don't go together. Furthermore, intl. football isn't half as open, fast paced and attacking as club football, teams tend to be defensive (unless you are Brazil). This means he won't get the same no. of opportunities to make that shot and that killer pass, which probably inhibits him to a large degree.

Sorry doremi but that's a piss poor argument. Terrible effort. Shit as.

Zidane had Makalele "doing the dirty work" for him at Real and for France. Earlier he had Davids at Juventus. Ronaldinho has had Gilberto/Emerson and Deco/Edmilson/Marquez for Barca. Baggio had Dino Baggio or Albertini. Rivaldo had Dunga. Scholes had Keane. Pires had Viera. Gerrard has had Hamann and later Sissoko, Alonso and Mascherano. Fabregas has had Flamini/Gilberto doing the dirty work for him. Charlton had Nobby Stiles. Fock me, Pele and Jarzinho had Gerson, was it?

There's about a million examples. It's one of the oldest and most fundamental rules of football; the artist and the destroyer. Most great attacking midfielders have had excellent defensive midfielders "doing the dirty work". Your argument makes no sense at all.

What's your point about International football? He proved himself as a world class international at Euro 2004 and for 2 years after that.

Edit: added "Your argument" in front of "makes no sense..."

Wow, you missed the whole point. I'm not arguing that Lampard is good only because he has Makelele and co., as I've already said he's good. The discussion was about the discrepancy (that probably is the word, though I'm not entrely sure) in his intl. and club form. In club football, he has people who run all over the pitch to get him the ball. In intl. football, he has Gerrard.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 31 Oct 2007, 14:28

Ah, I see. Apologies. So what you're saying is Lampard isn't a world class midfielder at international level because he doesn't have an adequate defensive midfielder behind him. Right. How is that Lampard's fault?

by doremi Wed 31 Oct 2007, 14:30

Amazing! Where have I said it's Lampard's fault.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 31 Oct 2007, 14:41

Danny - there's a multitude of issues I could reply to in your rather verbose and dare I say it, arrogant, post but I don't think it would make the slightest bit of difference so there's really no point.

I will say this though; I fail to see how watching more football can possibly help in the debate over whether Lampard is world class or not. That said, your bleating about my arrogance boils down to a "respect your elders" lecture. Spare me.

Bit worried about Calzaghe myself. I don't know why he's gone and announced he's retiring in 12 months just before one of the toughest fights of his life. Sounds a bit like he knows he's slowing down. It'd be great if he beat Kessler, B-hop and Pavlik/Taylor before he retired. Not going to happen but that run of fights would definitely secure his legacy. Still, Joe on points for me. Pretty sure Kessler won't be KOd.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 31 Oct 2007, 14:42

doremi wrote:Amazing! Where have I said it's Lampard's fault.

Fair enough. That's what the implication seemed to be. So you agree that Lampard is world class?

by holcs Wed 31 Oct 2007, 14:47

You cannot be world class if you cannot produce consistently great performances on the international scene!!

Lampard doesn't and hasn't for a long time, therefore he is not world class.

by doremi Wed 31 Oct 2007, 14:49

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
doremi wrote:Amazing! Where have I said it's Lampard's fault.

Fair enough. That's what the implication seemed to be. So you agree that Lampard is world class?

I think he's good enough to be in the England team, yes.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 31 Oct 2007, 14:49

Then we are in agreement, doremi. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 31 Oct 2007, 14:52

holcs wrote:You cannot be world class if you cannot produce consistently great performances on the international scene!!

Lampard doesn't and hasn't for a long time, therefore he is not world class.

So now it's "producing consistently great performances on the international scene" holc. A suitably ambiguous definition that we could argue about for years.

However, before it was "never produced at international level in any tournament. The chump". What a fickle little man you are! Wink

by JKLever Wed 31 Oct 2007, 15:36

Dello wrote:This thread has become seriously uncool.

I know what it needs:

Spoiler:

I'm sorry the Fonz was never cool.

Nor is calling someone 'Super Frankie' or even worse 'Stevie G'

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 31 Oct 2007, 15:50

Ayy!

*snaps fingers*

by holcs Wed 31 Oct 2007, 16:00

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
holcs wrote:You cannot be world class if you cannot produce consistently great performances on the international scene!!

Lampard doesn't and hasn't for a long time, therefore he is not world class.

So now it's "producing consistently great performances on the international scene" holc. A suitably ambiguous definition that we could argue about for years.

However, before it was "never produced at international level in any tournament. The chump". What a fickle little man you are!

Not fickle at all. I was told by Mak I believe that I had forgotten his performances in Euro 2004. So I took that statement back. Quite happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

But i fail how even you can believe that you can be world class and put in mediocre performances for 3 years or so for your Country?

Surely the definition of World class is to perform at the highest level Internationally well?

Which he hasn't done!

by Brass Monkey Wed 31 Oct 2007, 17:21

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Danny - there's a multitude of issues I could reply to in your rather verbose and dare I say it, arrogant, post but I don't think it would make the slightest bit of difference so there's really no point.

I will say this though; I fail to see how watching more football can possibly help in the debate over whether Lampard is world class or not. That said, your bleating about my arrogance boils down to a "respect your elders" lecture. Spare me.

Of course you could baby, of course you could. Construe my sh!t whichever way you like.

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Bit worried about Calzaghe myself. I don't know why he's gone and announced he's retiring in 12 months just before one of the toughest fights of his life. Sounds a bit like he knows he's slowing down. It'd be great if he beat Kessler, B-hop and Pavlik/Taylor before he retired. Not going to happen but that run of fights would definitely secure his legacy. Still, Joe on points for me. Pretty sure Kessler won't be KOd.

Calzaghe... not sure why you'd be worried personally. His retirement announcement is immaterial IMO. As for Kessler, damn fine fighter. Think he's a possible light-heavy too... relies on his rockish jab and arched jab, which shouldn't be too much of a problem for Joe, but he's got an awesome counter-punch right cross, snaps good. Fact is though, he's quite leaden footed and he wont be able to stand there and trade with a bloke who has lightning dynamite for a pair of hands like he has with others. Nor will his good counter matter, if Joe's tactics are spot on as usual - Joe can switch-hit and I don't think Kessler's got the skill to deal with it if he does.

I'd leave Hopkins alone personally, nothing really to gain apart from 'he beat an old man'. No recognition, a big payday he doesn't need and a bit more of a circus, which I don't think he likes. Besides which, Pavlik is the danger man. I'd go for him. Taylor was shown to be the joke he is, so overhyped. Was well glad for Kelly, he's a good fighter with very heavy hands. What a 'kin joke Taylor is, sorry to reiterate, but he really is. If anything, his name is too much 'Muddy' at the minute for Calzaghe to touch him with a bargepole. The bigger likelihood is Winky. I'd leave that farquar well alone.

by Geoffrey Trueman Wed 31 Oct 2007, 22:09

Way to go Lamps. Two goals in a 4-3 home win against the mighty Leicester City surely cements his place amongst the elite of world football. Apparently he ran ex-Spurs and Brum legend Stephen Clemence ragged. Nice one Frank.

Btw, does anyone know where I can find those predictions LLL made about Derby? A cheap shot I know but I fancy having a laugh at the afflicted.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 31 Oct 2007, 22:18

Huh? So he isn't allowed to score goals against lower league clubs? It's not like he does it exclusively against them is it?

As for the Derby predictions, they're clearly tainted by hopeless optimism.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 31 Oct 2007, 22:23

Batfink Begins wrote:
Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Danny - there's a multitude of issues I could reply to in your rather verbose and dare I say it, arrogant, post but I don't think it would make the slightest bit of difference so there's really no point.

I will say this though; I fail to see how watching more football can possibly help in the debate over whether Lampard is world class or not. That said, your bleating about my arrogance boils down to a "respect your elders" lecture. Spare me.

Of course you could baby, of course you could. Construe my sh!t whichever way you like.

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:
Bit worried about Calzaghe myself. I don't know why he's gone and announced he's retiring in 12 months just before one of the toughest fights of his life. Sounds a bit like he knows he's slowing down. It'd be great if he beat Kessler, B-hop and Pavlik/Taylor before he retired. Not going to happen but that run of fights would definitely secure his legacy. Still, Joe on points for me. Pretty sure Kessler won't be KOd.

Calzaghe... not sure why you'd be worried personally. His retirement announcement is immaterial IMO. As for Kessler, damn fine fighter. Think he's a possible light-heavy too... relies on his rockish jab and arched jab, which shouldn't be too much of a problem for Joe, but he's got an awesome counter-punch right cross, snaps good. Fact is though, he's quite leaden footed and he wont be able to stand there and trade with a bloke who has lightning dynamite for a pair of hands like he has with others. Nor will his good counter matter, if Joe's tactics are spot on as usual - Joe can switch-hit and I don't think Kessler's got the skill to deal with it if he does.

I'd leave Hopkins alone personally, nothing really to gain apart from 'he beat an old man'. No recognition, a big payday he doesn't need and a bit more of a circus, which I don't think he likes. Besides which, Pavlik is the danger man. I'd go for him. Taylor was shown to be the joke he is, so overhyped. Was well glad for Kelly, he's a good fighter with very heavy hands. What a 'kin joke Taylor is, sorry to reiterate, but he really is. If anything, his name is too much 'Muddy' at the minute for Calzaghe to touch him with a bargepole. The bigger likelihood is Winky. I'd leave that farquar well alone.

Not sure Taylor is as bad as you say. Pavlik was lucky to survive early on, outclassed for a period and was saved by the bell in the second round. Taylor could have easily won.

B-hop's still got the skills to pay the bills. It'd be an impressive name on his record in my book.

by Paul Keating Thu 01 Nov 2007, 00:23

I pity LLL's love for Lampard.

We did this to death during last year's World Cup. The consensus was Lampard is shite. End of.

BTW, LLL, it's Pontoon. I'm slowly getting back into forumming ready for the Aussie summer ahead.

by PearlJ Thu 01 Nov 2007, 00:33

Paul Keating wrote:I pity LLL's love for Lampard.

We did this to death during last year's World Cup. The consensus was Lampard is shite. End of.

BTW, LLL, it's Pontoon. I'm slowly getting back into forumming ready for the Aussie summer ahead.

That's disappointing. I thought Paul Keating was actually on the forum...... pale

by G.Wood Thu 01 Nov 2007, 00:36

PearlJ wrote:
Paul Keating wrote:I pity LLL's love for Lampard.

We did this to death during last year's World Cup. The consensus was Lampard is shite. End of.

BTW, LLL, it's Pontoon. I'm slowly getting back into forumming ready for the Aussie summer ahead.

That's disappointing. I thought Paul Keating was actually on the forum......