The worst England bowling attack since 1993? Or....ever?

Moan moan moan. It's all some of you people ever do.

Eric Air Emu wrote:

Rob I wrote:

Eric Air Emu wrote:Flintoff isn't a messiah but he's as good as England fast bowlers have come in the past 20 odd years.

Hmm, he's really only had three good years in the ten he's played. 1998-2002 and 2006-date he's been a stock bowler. I'm not sure why he doesn't run through sides as he seems to have all the tools - pace, accuracy, reverse swing. Maybe he bowls half a yard too short.

But it's about the competition- Gough, Caddick, Hoggard, Cork & Fraser were at times either injury stricken, in and out of the side and in and out of form. Freddy's already got more wickets than the latter two and given two years of bowling should pip the others. Were any of the above ever consistently good for more than 3 years at a time?

Gough, Hoggard and Fraser were consistently effective when they played, as I recall.

PeterCS wrote:Moan moan moan. It's all some of you people ever do.

Before a gig a while ago, we were standing outside the venue having a quiet ciggie and a chat, which may have included some complaining about something (as you do) when a middle aged man came up to us and, quite announced, said, 'moan and smoke. That's all you people ever do, moan and smoke.' He then left, as quickly as he'd materialised. 'Do you know him?' one of us asked. 'Nope.' came the reply.

We saw him several times throughout the evening and every time he'd just shake his head and say 'moan and smoke. Moan and smoke.' No other words passed between us.

It wasn't you, was it?

Eric Air Emu wrote:Steve Waugh's ton in that match was scored mainly off the bowling of Richard Dawson. Why people got so excited about the spectacle of a has-been flogging the bowling of an impotent smurf is beyond me.

gold

Ah... pre back to back Ashes winning England sides. What memories...

Seems a long long time ago now .....

Winkle Spinner wrote:

PeterCS wrote:Moan moan moan. It's all some of you people ever do.

Before a gig a while ago, we were standing outside the venue having a quiet ciggie and a chat, which may have included some complaining about something (as you do) when a middle aged man came up to us and, quite announced, said, 'moan and smoke. That's all you people ever do, moan and smoke.' He then left, as quickly as he'd materialised. 'Do you know him?' one of us asked. 'Nope.' came the reply.

We saw him several times throughout the evening and every time he'd just shake his head and say 'moan and smoke. Moan and smoke.' No other words passed between us.

It wasn't you, was it?

Over two years later, just sptted this, thanks to Lardy's virtual defibrillator.

No, it most certainly was NOT me. Smoking is your own business.

Secondary moaning, on the other hand, is a menace of the modern age. Moaning shortens lives, spreads misery all around. Cut it out, I say.

Aye. If it saddens you to see folk moaning, you shouldn't moan to them about it. That defeats its purpose. You should do something positive instead. I'd suggest a rousing chorus of "Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life".

Well Broad is still sh*t.

Speaking of sanctamonious moaning....

Guest wrote:

Henry wrote:
Over the last 16 years, even though England have had quite a few periods when they have been complete pap, they've at least always had 1 bowler who was genuinely world class on his day- Darren Gough, Angus Fraser, Andrew Caddick, Andrew Flintoff....Even Dominic Cork for a 2 year period from 95-97. Dean Headley wasn't the worst either.

Now you can look at the current England attack and say that not one of them is world class. Even Flintoff's bowling, as wholehearted and stirring as it is (when he's fit) is starting to be quietly considered over rated in some parts. England's reserve pacemen are in the process of being hammered all around New Zealand. New Zealand FFS.

Are England's current fast bowling stocks the worst they've ever been in over 120 years of test cricket?

The "attack" that took the field in the last test was the worst in my 27-year memory.

JKLever wrote:
Worst since 89.

I'd like to think we're not seriously thinking of continuing with Ohmygod Khan.

At least Eric Air Emu had the good sense to shout you lot down, jesus christ. What a load of wattle. The wickets were so flat in that series it was barely cricket, but the bowlers themselves were all of decent quality (except Amjad Khan).

Their Test Careers to date:

Graeme Swann - 138 wickets at 27.62
Ryan Sidebottom - 79 wickets at 28.24
Jimmy Anderson - 215 wickets at 30.98
Steven Harmison - 226 wickets at 31.82
Andrew Flintoff - 226 wickets at 32.78
Monty Panesar - 126 wickets at 34.37
Stuart Broad - 105 wickets at 35.97
Amjad Khan - 1 wicket at 122
Adil Rashid - no tests to date

Some of England's best bowlers of recent years in that lot. I can't think of a stronger England spin attack since at least the 80's, maybe earlier, and Jimmy Anderson was establishing himself as one of the best fast bowlers in the world, while Sidebottom, Flintoff, Harmison and Broad have all been effective at times, and were certainly more hostile than some of the England powder-puff attacks when the likes of de Freitas and Lewis used to take the new ball. They were all able to bowl 90mph and intimidate the batsmen with bounce on a decent track. The England Lions had a weak bowling attack, but there were other players like Tremlett, Onions and Bresnan also on the radar around that time.

The averages may look a shade high, but remember Tests always seem to go the full 5 days in the 2000s and wickets are good - you rarely get the 3 day shoot-out Tests on a green top that happened more frequently in the 80s and 90s.

How some of you could seriously say this bowling attack was worse than say:

1997 at Headingley - Darren Gough, Dean Headley, Mike Smith, Mark Ealham and Robert Croft
2003 at Headingley - our 'famous five' fast bowlers of a pre-pubescent Jimmy Anderson, Martin Bicknell, Kabir Ali, James Kirtley and Flintoff
1995 at Old Trafford - Dominic Cork, Angus Fraser, Mike Watkinson, John Emburey, Craig White
1996 at Trent Bridge - Dominic Cork, Chris Lewis, Alan Mullally, Min Patel and Mark Ealham
1994 at Lords - Angus Fraser, Phil de Freitas, Paul Taylor, Peter Such, Craig White

Since this thread was initiated, Jimminy Anderson has taken 98 wickets at an average of 25.66, economy of 2.95 (which on balance is excellent) at a S/R of 52.1. He's been indefatigable and incredibly broad-shouldered in leading the attack. I'm a wide-eyed giggling little dedicated fan of the man nowadays. Combine him with the Swanner and you can see why England have won more than they've lost in that time period. Whether or not that could've been foreseen is another matter.

Yep a bit of use of hindsight there gazza.

And if you can't have a depression induced whinge on the bails, where can you!

JKLever wrote:Yep a bit of use of hindsight there gazza.

And if you can't have a depression induced whinge on the bails, where can you!

True. And you can always dig up dozens of posts by me about why Chris Read should be playing instead of Matt Prior....

Hitched my colours to Tim Ambrose.

And for one Test, I was right...

Dello wrote:I lovingly made Saj Mahmood dolls once...

Fixed

I've never "lovingly made" anything, as that would imply that I took any kind of joy in any degree of work.

What you meant to say is: I resentfully made Saj Mahmood dolls once.

And what of it?

I also didn't think Andrew Flintoff would never make a Test class bowler.

While I was digging up those bad bowling attacks I came across the Test squads for the 1999 series against New Zealand, thinking along the Irani / Giddins vibe, didn't realise Graeme Swann actually made the Test squad back then - but was kept out of the team by Phil Tufnell.

I knew he had toured SA that Winter, but it is strange to think that Swann, England's 'newish' bowler was on the scene before players like Vaughan, Trescothick, Harmison, Hoggard and Jones, who's careers are long since over now.

I was always with 'Matty P' / 'Tha Pri-ster' / 'P-Dog' / 'Jellers'.

Made pure sense to have someone who didn't sh!t themselves when the chips were constantly down

Y'know, rather than have someone who may effect an extra dismissal through glovework every two Tests, whilst saving a few more byes.

As it turned out, it's moot. He's been near impeccable.

Gary 111 wrote:didn't realise Graeme Swann actually made the Test squad back then - but was kept out of the team by Phil Tufnell.

Don't get me started... we're he from Surrey or Lancashire......

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I still maintain though that Read's batting is better than most people realise - he'd have averaged over 30 in Tests if he'd had a longer career. Prior has improved his keeping though, and his batting is almost good enough for selection alone as a specialist.

Read would still be a decent shout for the ODI team as Prior isn't good at limited overs cricket. A bit like Michael Slater, he scores quickly in Tests because he's prepared to hit decent length balls outside off stump for four in the covers / point arc. In ODI's you get less deliveries in this area and the field is reinforced so the gaps are smaller.

Read is a bit more unorthadox, hits the ball to more unusual areas and would be a good number 7. You don't get a FC batting average of almost 37 if you can't bat, and his List A average is the same as Prior's (while batting in a lower position). Its a shame he's most remembered for his Tests 12 years ago when he was a considerably worse cricketer.

Woah there, Gaz. Is that the same Chris Read who has played 36 ODIs with a HS of 30, an average of 17 and a s/r of 72?

Come on - let it go.

Monkey:

We're who??

Speak for yself matey.





Besides, Lancs hasn't been overrepresented for the ECB. For every Saj there's a Chappie AND a Keeds.

Dello wrote:Woah there, Gaz. Is that the same Chris Read who has played 36 ODIs with a HS of 30, an average of 17 and a s/r of 72?

Come on - let it go.

Not great, but Prior hasn't done much better. He didn't get a bat in a lot of those ODI's and he hasn't played an ODI for 5 years at least - he's a much better cricketer now.

Even as a 20 year old I remember him almost pulling a game out of the fire by clobbering Pollock for a six back over his head. He also won us an ODI in the Windies with 27 off 15 balls. Given the larger sample size of List A cricket he's match Prior, and i'll bet his strike rate is higher.

Technically, Read never looked up to batting at test level for me.

James Foster is a better keeper anyhow.

PeterCS wrote:Monkey:

Besides, Lancs hasn't been overrepresented for the ECB. For every Saj there's a Chappie AND a Keeds.

It's not going to dissuade me, quoting a couple of players. I'm on about times past, not now when it's a little less cronyistic. Crawley, Schofield. Loye, Swann. Chip, chip, chippedy chip.