One last game for Pidge!

Ethics? The Gall! wrote:like a lotta things ivf means defective individuals are breeding.  brings down the overall standard of the species

not being judgmental one way or the other.  just stating a fact

The problem with stating A fact is that you have ignored a lot of other more important facts

I understand how you might believe your opinion ...but it isn't necessarily correct

Individuals with defects have been breeding without help for a long time

embee wrote:

Ethics? The Gall! wrote:like a lotta things ivf means defective individuals are breeding.  brings down the overall standard of the species

not being judgmental one way or the other.  just stating a fact

The problem with stating A fact is that you have ignored a lot of other more important facts

I understand  how you might believe your opinion ...but it isn't necessarily correct

Individuals with defects have been breeding without help for a long time

Shall we leave Tasmania out of this?

embee wrote:

Ethics? The Gall! wrote:like a lotta things ivf means defective individuals are breeding.  brings down the overall standard of the species

not being judgmental one way or the other.  just stating a fact

I understand  how you might believe your opinion ...but it isn't necessarily correct

didnt say it was my opinion. just that its a basic argument against ivf. maybe one reason why some people are against it

skully wrote:Puts a whole new perspective on "toxic sperm build-up".

I'm assuming here that the word 'toxic' refers specifically to McGrath.

Ethics? The Gall! wrote:like a lotta things ivf means defective individuals are breeding .. brings down the overall standard of the species.

not being judgmental one way or the other.  just stating a fact

What absolute and utter bollocks.
"Fact" ?
My ar*e -

You'd have excelled in bringing Hitler's dream to fruition back in the 30's to create a pure Aryan race.

two comments from the merkin. one knee-jerk reaction. one hitler reference

pretty standard

JGK wrote:

Ethics? The Gall! wrote:like a lotta things ivf means defective individuals are breeding.  brings down the overall standard of the species

not being judgmental one way or the other.  just stating a fact

Sounds judgmental to me.  And wrong.

I don't understand the "like a lotta things" opener to this classic statement.

should have said a lot of other things. that better?

its a point of view. not saying i agree with it but i can see why some people think that way

This is not a black and white issue.

For a lot of IVF parents, infertility is the only issue they have. Women in particular can become infertile through no fault of their own, and without suffering any transmissible genetic defect. I have two nephews that I would not have had assistance not been provided to their very loving parents ... my brother could have children, but his wife needed help. If they were to have children together, help was needed.

I am biased of course, but I am certain that they are 'better' parents and that they have healthier happier children than many couple who have children without 'assistance'.

lardbucket wrote:This is not a black and white issue.

For a lot of IVF parents, infertility is the only issue they have. Women in particular can become infertile through no fault of their own, and without suffering any transmissible genetic defect. I have two nephews that I would not have had assistance not been provided to their very loving parents ... my brother could have children, but his wife needed help. If they were to have children together, help was needed.

I am biased of course, but I am certain that they are 'better' parents and that they have healthier happier children than many couple who have children without 'assistance'.

You've nailed it Lardy - anyone going through the emotion, distress and expense of having kids through IVF is a much better bet to raise kids who will turn out to be good citizens than a randomly selected pregnant women.

Ethics? The Gall! wrote:two comments from the merkin.  one knee-jerk reaction.  one hitler reference

pretty standard

Calls merlin "merkin", has odd views on procreation and deep views on child abuse but has only recently found this forum...

How come so many people with poor IQ's and/or no ability what-so-ever to bring children up in a loving, caring and supportive environment have umpteen kids with umpteen partners at the drop of a hat? What sort of natural selection is that? Survival of the "feralist"?

Totally agree with lardy's post.

lardbucket wrote:This is not a black and white issue.

For a lot of IVF parents, infertility is the only issue they have. Women in particular can become infertile through no fault of their own, and without suffering any transmissible genetic defect. I have two nephews that I would not have had assistance not been provided to their very loving parents ... my brother could have children, but his wife needed help. If they were to have children together, help was needed.

I am biased of course, but I am certain that they are 'better' parents and that they have healthier happier children than many couple who have children without 'assistance'.

Clearly not black or white but one would assume that those that go the IVF route would normally be better educated and wealthier. Of course this does not mean that they are better equipped emotionally to nurture children.

You can get a set number or IVF cycles on the NHS here. You are interviewed and you have to be approved but it doesn't mean you have to have a certain income level, which I think is fair. What price do you put on unconditional love and support? Most of us would die for our children wouldn't we who have had children without intervention, so would those who have had IVF, probably more so after everything they have been through to have a child.

That said as the child of an adopted child, adoption in the right circumstances is wonderful too, if you have love to give, don't waste it.

Oh agreed, but in those days adoption was severely monitored and would guess financial security was a major part of the criteria.

Not saying that was right though.

It was in the war, I don't know anything about the process. I'm not from a wealthy family just a very stable one.

War times were obviously different. Stabilty then and now would be an important criterion one would hope. I am not sure wealth is, or should be a criterion, some sort of an ability to provide necessities should be.

I worked for the council for fostering and adoption for about 10 months, there's a means 'questionnaire' as part of the application process, but essentially that's not the big deal. It's more about whatever the social worker thinks of you - how they assess you.

Sort of what I was getting at. I still feel if you didn't meet the means criterion you might find yourself low on the list.

@ etg -

A perfectly puerile defence .... "not saying I agree" ... "I didn't mean it" ..."I can see why some people think that way".

So WTF did you mean when you said ...

like a lotta things ivf means defective individuals are breeding. brings down the overall standard of the species

You're a deluded twat who backtracks faster than a Scum defender.

I suspect that the expression   ... Sieg Heil ..... sits well with you.

JGK wrote:

lardbucket wrote:This is not a black and white issue.

For a lot of IVF parents, infertility is the only issue they have. Women in particular can become infertile through no fault of their own, and without suffering any transmissible genetic defect. I have two nephews that I would not have had assistance not been provided to their very loving parents ... my brother could have children, but his wife needed help. If they were to have children together, help was needed.

I am biased of course, but I am certain that they are 'better' parents and that they have healthier happier children than many couple who have children without 'assistance'.

You've nailed it Lardy - anyone going through the emotion, distress and expense of having kids through IVF is a much better bet to raise kids who will turn out to be good citizens than a randomly selected pregnant women.

Bang on the button - both these posts

taipan wrote:Sort of what I was getting at. I still feel if you didn't meet the means criterion you might find yourself low on the list.

To an extent - I mean it'd be doubtful they're likely to give a child to someone who has been on the dole for 10 years, but there's no real threshold as such. Just proof of regular work and a non black hole in your finances. Which, in some ways, is a bit of a joke considering all the professional benefitters out there

eowyn wrote:

Ethics? The Gall! wrote:two comments from the merkin.  one knee-jerk reaction.  one hitler reference

pretty standard

Calls merlin "merkin", has odd views on procreation and deep views on child abuse but has only recently found this forum...

How come so many people with poor IQ's and/or no ability what-so-ever to bring children up in a loving, caring and supportive environment  have umpteen kids with umpteen partners at the drop of a hat? What sort of natural selection is that? Survival of the "feralist"?

Totally agree with lardy's post.

so do i

funny how i keep saying i dont necessarily agree with the argument against ivf but people keep ignoring that and carrying on. another one of those sacred cows that disrupts the ability to think clearly and fairly

Merlin wrote:@ etg -

A perfectly puerile defence .... "not saying I agree" ... "I didn't mean it" ..."I can see why some people think that way".

So WTF did you mean when you said ...

like a lotta things ivf means defective individuals are breeding. brings down the overall standard of the species

You're a deluded twat who backtracks faster than a Scum defender.

I suspect that the expression   ... Sieg Heil ..... sits well with you.

youve never heard of godwins law have you?

what i meant was simply that that is the main argument against it. except for the religious fundamentalists who reckon we should lie back and accept gods will

are you actually capable of conducting a discussion without resorting to infantile abuse or is that your default setting?