Re: The EPL thread (I)

by eowyn Tue 18 Sep 2007, 21:27

Sorry, who do you support JKL? As a Leed supporter I've given up caring about everyhing

by JKLever Tue 18 Sep 2007, 21:31

Ipswich.

Yeah, feel the same way

by LeFromage Tue 18 Sep 2007, 22:14

I keep hearing that Steven Gerrard is a "world class" central midfielder, yet every time I see him play through the middle he's a peripheral figure, occasionally popping up in front of goal, but with no real impact on the overall game in terms of passing, tackling - or even basic positional discipline.

He's basically Frank Lampard.

Although I keep hearing he's a "world class" central midfielder too, so perhaps they've lowered the bar a lot in recent years... shrug

by Lara Lara Laughs Tue 18 Sep 2007, 22:43

Both are world class. Anyone who can't see it is, frankly, beyond help.

by Geoffrey Trueman Tue 18 Sep 2007, 23:01

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Both are world class. Anyone who can't see it is, frankly, beyond help.

Well, I think just one of them is 'world class'. Does that mean there's help available, and if so, where do I get it from?

by Lara Lara Laughs Tue 18 Sep 2007, 23:30

You can't be helped if you can't admit that Lampard is world class.

This whole "Lampard is rubbish" bandwagon is exactly the same as the "Owen Hargreaves is rubbish" one, that is, it's complete rubbish.

It's probably because a lot of people saw Lampard's (admittedly poor) World Cup and settled on an unsustainable viewpoint. It's comparable to watching Tendulkar get out for a duck a few times and concluding that he's crap.

by LeFromage Tue 18 Sep 2007, 23:31

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Both are world class. Anyone who can't see it is, frankly, beyond help.

If that's the case then, as I said, the standard for what constitutes "world class" must be at an all time low.

England haven't had a "world class" midfielder since Bobby Charlton. Perhaps Bryan Robson in between the massive injury lay-offs. Hoddle hinted at it, but never really delivered. As did Gascoigne, briefly, before injuries and idiocy caught up with him.

If Lampard and Gerrard are seriously considered at the same level as any of those guys at their peak, I can only assume the people making the judgement have short memories or no memories at all.

by Lara Lara Laughs Tue 18 Sep 2007, 23:39

Well, that's a silly line of argument. Totti isn't world class because he isn't as good as Paulo Rossi then. Ronaldo isn't as good as Eusebio so he's not world class either. Neither is Owen because he's not as good as Lineker.

World class, in my opinion, simply means being a member of the small group of elite players in the world. I don't know what ridiculous definition you're working with.

by LeFromage Tue 18 Sep 2007, 23:41

Totti? That one-paced show-pony?

Deary me...

by Makaveli Tue 18 Sep 2007, 23:44

Depends on how you define "world class", as a club player Lampard is one of the best (i do feel his goal scoring record is helped a lot beacuse he takes all the pens and most free kicks), but overall including internationals he falls short by a lot, he also goes missing in big games and tournements, so imo no he's not world class.

by Makaveli Tue 18 Sep 2007, 23:54

Imo recent/current world class players are Zidane, Kaka and Ronaldinho there are a few more but i can't think of atm, but those guys are ones that spring to mind when you think world class and when you look at it Lampard has not performed or achieved anything near to what those guys have done.

by Chivalry Augustus Wed 19 Sep 2007, 00:00

World-Class is an over-used term. The very best are world-class, the elite few. To me, only the best eleven players that make up a team are world-class. That is, one goalkeeper, one left back, two strikers, et cetera.

And in that regard, only two Englishman would get in my team; John Terry and Michael Owen.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 19 Sep 2007, 00:45

For fecks sake. There's so much bull spread about Lampard that people actually believe it.

He scores most of his goals from penalties. No. Over the last four seasons, Lampard's scored 53 goals for Chelsea in the premiership. 12 have been penalties. Take away the penalties and he's scored 41 in the premiership alone. I think you'll find that's still way better than any other midfielder.

He scores loads of deflections. No. Of his 96 goals for Chelsea, 6 have been deflections.

No, of course Lampard's not world class. Show me some midfielders that are scoring at his rate around the world. Oh yes. Ronaldinho. Kaka. Cristiano Ronaldo (only 1 season, if he keeps it going for another 3 or 4 he'll have achieved the same as Lampard). Hang on a sec. Aren't these the elite players in the world? I think they are! Gee whizz.

Show me another midfielder in the world who has scored 75 goals in the last 4 years? Is there one? In a top quality league? I very much doubt it.

The above will be read and people will ejaculate all over their keyboards in their mad rush to type "Oh he only scores goals, he can't defend". Absolute bum. The man's a box to box midfielder. He's tireless in attack and defence. He's a good tackler and his movement off the ball is second to none. His passing is brilliant too. He's a pretty complete midfielder.

Lampard's priceless quality - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/article2246555.ece

Doesn't perform for England? Rubbish yet again. He was England's top scorer in their world cup qualifying campaign. Without his goals, England wouldn't have qualified, full stop. In 2004 and 2005 he was England's player of the year, voted for by the fans. Now the masses have deceided he's no good. He had a poor world cup so yeah, he's rubbish ain't he?

Consider his record for England. 13 goals in 56 games. Compare him to other great, goalscoring England midfielders:

Scholes - 14 goals in 66 games
Gascoigne - 10 goals in 57 games.
Hoddle - 8 goals in 53 games.
Beckham - 17 goals in 97 games.
Gerrard - 12 goals in 59 games.
Waddle - 6 goals in 62 games.

He doesn't perform in big games. Bull. Check out his performances and goals for Chelsea in the champions league (which is probably at a higher standard than world cups). Watch his goal against Barca last year.

Why has he been voted runner up in both the European Footballer of the Year AND Fifa World player of the year? Both times behind Ronaldinho, perhaps the greatest player of his era.

Why has Sir Alex Feguson (not a bad manager) called Lampard "A freakishly good player"?

Why is he consistently picked for England?

Why is he consistently at the top or near the top of statistical analysis lists?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/fink_tank/article1851667.ece

Have any of you actually watched the man play? For Gawd's sake. I've had enough of brainless Lampard bashing. The man's a bona fide leg-end.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 19 Sep 2007, 00:46

Dello wrote:Totti? That one-paced show-pony?

Deary me...

He's a knob, but he's class. World class. There's not really much debate about it.

by Geoffrey Trueman Wed 19 Sep 2007, 00:57

Dello wrote:Totti? That one-paced show-pony?

Deary me...

Stop it, you're scaring me now. Man after my own heart and all that.

I'm with Augustus, 'world class' is over used. After Messi and Cech I'm struggling. I suppose Henry, Kaka and Robbie Savage are up there, but that's about it. Oh, and Fabregas, I reckon that lad might just be on the verge of greatness.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 19 Sep 2007, 01:01

After Messi and Cech I'm struggling.

Oh dear.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 19 Sep 2007, 01:03

Augustus wrote:World-Class is an over-used term. The very best are world-class, the elite few. To me, only the best eleven players that make up a team are world-class. That is, one goalkeeper, one left back, two strikers, et cetera.

And in that regard, only two Englishman would get in my team; John Terry and Michael Owen.

That's just silly. It's impossible to decide upon a world class XI. There are too many footballers and too many footballers of similar ability.

by Ash Wed 19 Sep 2007, 01:23

theres a difference between world class and great IMO. lampard, gerrard, beckham, owen are/were all world class but not great. to be a top player at a real top class club consistently over a long period, delivering in europe aswell as the domestic league has to make a world class player. but i suppose it very subjective.

imo in the premiership over the last 5 years or so theres only been one great player - thierry henry.

by Geoffrey Trueman Wed 19 Sep 2007, 02:18

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:After Messi and Cech I'm struggling.

Oh dear.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the vibe I'm picking up is that you reckon every half decent player that gets on the telly is world class.

By your definition then, Ernest Frankelsteizer, a Liechtenstein garage mechanic, of some repute I might add, that played three games for Hansa Rostock reserves is a 'world class' footballer because he once played in a World Cup qualifier against Italy.

Is that right? Oh, and while you're thinking about it get kettle on love, I'm parched.

(Eeh, I love a good cliche me.)

by PearlJ Wed 19 Sep 2007, 02:42

I think Lumpard is an absolute twat and of course he plays for Chelski....

But he is a quality player....

Although he does need a player like Makalele/Essien to cover for his inability to track back.

by horace Wed 19 Sep 2007, 02:44

limpid consistently fails on the international stage...ther ramps/vaughn of football

by doremi Wed 19 Sep 2007, 09:43

Lampard is class, there's no denying that 'frankly'. But, he is not a box-to-box mid-fielder.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 19 Sep 2007, 13:35

Geoffrey Trueman wrote:
Lara Lara Laughs wrote:After Messi and Cech I'm struggling.

Oh dear.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the vibe I'm picking up is that you reckon every half decent player that gets on the telly is world class.

By your definition then, Ernest Frankelsteizer, a Liechtenstein garage mechanic, of some repute I might add, that played three games for Hansa Rostock reserves is a 'world class' footballer because he once played in a World Cup qualifier against Italy.

Is that right? Oh, and while you're thinking about it get kettle on love, I'm parched.

(Eeh, I love a good cliche me.)

Uh oh. After being pretty much proved wrong on the Lampard front, you come up with a childish response like this.

If you can't think of any world class players after Cech and Messi then this discussion is clearly a waste of time as you truly do know very little about football.

Good day.

by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 19 Sep 2007, 13:40

doremi wrote:Lampard is class, there's no denying that 'frankly'. But, he is not a box-to-box mid-fielder.

His tackling is underrated and his positioning and pressure work are excellent. The man probably has the best midfield engine in England. Perhaps Essien might make a claim. Don't get me wrong, he's a player that primarily attacks, ie. an attacking midfielder, but the reason people underate his defensive qualities is because Makalele and Essien do such a good job. He's got everything a decent DM needs. Positioning, a decent tackle, great passing, anticipation, vision, tenacity and tirelesness.

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