Greatest left hand bat since Sobers - AB or BCL?

[tac]They both f*cked your mum[/tac]

PearlJ wrote:

What does Ponting and Kallis have to do with this?

You need to go back and read PJ. It's a clear comparison between Border/Viv and Punter/Kallis.

JKLever wrote:

PearlJ wrote:

What does Ponting and Kallis have to do with this?

You need to go back and read PJ. It's a clear comparison between Border/Viv and Punter/Kallis.

And how does that further the AB/Viv debate? Dredging up old arguments and trying to find hypocrisy doesn't add anything to the debate.

Fair enough peter. Just out of interest, would you rate Ponting well ahead of Kallis, when strike rates, opposition and the strength of their sides are taken into consideration?

I feel that Leo and a few others on this board slightly underrate Viv. The main reason being the disparity between '76 and the rest of his career. If a batsman is consistently excellent throughout his career and then has one peak year, where he's nigh on unstoppable, I don't think you can lambast him for a lack of consistency. Besides, as Danny and I have suggested earlier in the thread, averages didn't seem to matter to Richards. He wanted to dominate and score fast runs. If he'd looked after his wicket better he could have averaged more. Also, if he'd retired 5 years before he did, at the age of 34-5, he would have averaged around 55. The fact that he was facing Prasanna in the 70s and Fraser in the 90s is almost ridiculous.

The other gripe they have is the strength of his team and the fact that he didn't face his awesome foursome(s). But that suggests that he didn't face other great bowlers, which he did, by the bucketload. There was an abundance of bowling talent in his era and he faced them all. Hadlee, Bedi, Prasanna, Venkat, Chandra, Dev, Lillee, Thomson, Mallett, Alderman, Botham, Willis, Underwood, Hendrick, Greig, Imran, Akram, Qadir, and more that I can't think of.

PearlJ wrote:

JKLever wrote:

PearlJ wrote:

What does Ponting and Kallis have to do with this?

You need to go back and read PJ. It's a clear comparison between Border/Viv and Punter/Kallis.

And how does that further the AB/Viv debate? Dredging up old arguments and trying to find hypocrisy doesn't add anything to the debate.

[PJ] What has that got to do with any of this? [/PJ]

How about because they're using one set of stats to back up how great punter is in comparison to Kallis, and yet don't apply the same to Border/Viv argument.

It's to the max. Which is why you probably need someone to spell it out for you.

Pearlj - Be quiet you goon. I find it ridiculous that you can't understand a very simple analogy. If you keep asking, Danny will probably snap and sledgehammer it into your head in a way only Danny can.

taipan wrote:

experiencing transference or have you got a persecution complex? Most short men have.

Just saw this gem ....
PMSL .... 6 ft is short?
Okay I guess I am a little runt and so I must have a persecution complex or else experiencing transference
(Whatever TF that is).

taips - Are you thick or what?

BTW, I'd say Viv was the better bat.

But I'd also say that Viv was a swaggering wanker and that AB was a farking legend who bleed green and gold when our team was a shambles.

And if anyone doesn't like my view, well they can go ****** themselves.

But aren't all such comparisons meaningless?

This apple <? ?> that orange.

Invader Zim wrote:BTW, I'd say Viv was the better bat.

But I'd also say that Viv was a swaggering wanker and that AB was a farking legend who bleed green and gold when our team was a shambles.

And if anyone doesn't like my view, well they can go ****** themselves.

Now if you had worded it like that in the first place...

PeterCS wrote:But aren't all such comparisons meaningless?

This apple <? ?> that orange.

Sage.

If you look at it in segmented terms:

Consistency - Border
Balls - Pretty even
Batting ability - Viv
Averages - Even
Aggression/scoring rate - Viv
Stickability - Border
Captaincy - I wouldn't be able to tell you.
Saving games - Border
Winnning games - Viv


It's all pretty even in the end. Two great players. The one major thing Viv did that Border didn't and couldn't was change the actual game of cricket and lay the foundations for players like Gilchrist and Sehwag and Jayasuriya.

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Pearlj - Be quiet you goon. I find it ridiculous that you can't understand a very simple analogy. If you keep asking, Danny will probably snap and sledgehammer it into your head in a way only Danny can.

What analogy? Trying to equate 2 completely seperate discussions isn't an analogy.

And FTR, I never said AB was miles ahead of Viv (Or shits all over him ). Neither did I say that Viv was a bad batsmen. But IMO AB was a better batsmen.

And constantly posting this smiley: doesn't make your argument any stronger. Because it is quite clear that you and everyone else who posts here has an element of bias in their posting. I have a pro-Aussie bias where as you quite early have an anti-Aussie bias.

PeterCS wrote:But aren't all such comparisons meaningless?

This apple <? ?> that orange.

True - but then I'd already agreed that with the other, classier Peter

Now if you had worded it like that in the first place...

I didn't word it any way. I hadn't expressed a view at all, yet you lot had all assumed I'd go for AB cos I was an Aussie.

Comparing to two is bullshit anyway. One was a immensely arrogant and gifted player who came into a supreme team expertly lead, the other was a grafter (who spent most of his career doubting his own ability) who came into a team riven by the WSC schism and gutted by retirements.

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:If you look at it in segmented terms:

Consistency - Border
Balls - Pretty even
Batting ability - Viv
Averages - Even
Aggression/scoring rate - Viv
Stickability - Border
Captaincy - I wouldn't be able to tell you.
Saving games - Border
Winnning games - Viv


It's all pretty even in the end. Two great players. The one major thing Viv did that Border didn't and couldn't was change the actual game of cricket and lay the foundations for players like Gilchrist and Sehwag and Jayasuriya.

But Border layed the foundations for one of cricket's great teams.

Invader Zim wrote:I didn't word it any way. I hadn't expressed a view at all, yet you lot had all assumed I'd go for AB cos I was an Aussie.

Actually, I noted you hadn't mentioned and TBH I thought you'd go for Viv, if not for the simple fact that AB was a Chip.

PearlJ wrote:

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Pearlj - Be quiet you goon. I find it ridiculous that you can't understand a very simple analogy. If you keep asking, Danny will probably snap and sledgehammer it into your head in a way only Danny can.

What analogy? Trying to equate 2 completely seperate discussions isn't an analogy.

And FTR, I never said AB was miles ahead of Viv (Or shits all over him ). Neither did I say that Viv was a bad batsmen. But IMO AB was a better batsmen.

And constantly posting this smiley: doesn't make your argument any stronger. Because it is quite clear that you and everyone else who posts here has an element of bias in their posting. I have a pro-Aussie bias where as you quite early have an anti-Aussie bias.

ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!

It's called consistency of argument. Generic principles of reason that must be stuck to. Not flip-flopping. Making sense. Having a clue. That sort of thing.

PearlJ wrote:I have a pro-Aussie bias where as you quite early have an anti-Aussie bias.

So not thinking every Aussie in world cricket deserves to have a wankfest about him = anti-aussie bias?

Righto

Invader Zim wrote:

Now if you had worded it like that in the first place...

I didn't word it any way. I hadn't expressed a view at all, yet you lot had all assumed I'd go for AB cos I was an Aussie.

I was just factoring in that it seemed that way, and was nothing more than -dness because people who used to say the same thing about Kallis compared to Punter were now saying the counter argument against Border wasn't valid.

But fair enough, you weren't one of them...

JKLever wrote:

PearlJ wrote:I have a pro-Aussie bias where as you quite early have an anti-Aussie bias.

So not thinking every Aussie in world cricket deserves to have a wankfest about him = anti-aussie bias?

Righto

If you want to think that then go ahead. But I never said that.

JGK wrote:

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:


I was pretty spot on with my 65-70 guess for Viv! Whoo!

Is no-one interested in this list? :|


Took me bloody ages to find it.

Here is z-score's list:


http://www.sportstats.com.au/hotscore.html

I thought Compton would be on the list, near the top. He's not even on it and it stops at 50. When Pietersen was emerging as a Viv-like player, Boycott was in the media saying he was just like Denis Compton. Strange.

From PJ, I personally didn't like the whole "AB averaged 0.33 more, scored more runs(in over-proportionally more matches) and was a better captain alludes to AB being a better batsman - it's all sheer wank in the context of the thread and makes me wonder how much of a wankstain a person can get.

Brass Monkey wrote:From PJ, I personally didn't like the whole "AB averaged 0.33 more, scored more runs(in over-proportionally more matches) and was a better captain alludes to AB being a better batsman - it's all sheer wank in the context of the thread and makes me wonder how much of a wankstain a person can get.

OK, if we can just get over the fact that I am a wankstain......

I never said AB was miles better than Viv. Obviously they are very close.

Unlike you..... 'Viv? Shits all over Border'.... now if that were true surely it would be reflected in Viv having much better stats than Border.... which he doesn't. That was all I meant when I pointed out that AB's average was better.