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Greatest left hand bat since Sobers - AB or BCL?

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Post by Paul Keating Wed 11 Jun 2008, 05:05

Leo wrote:And frankly, some of the posts on here about hypocrisy re Chanderpaul are pathetic. No-one has had more good things to say about Shiv than me, and apart from some jocular remarks, most other Aussies have had nothing but praise for the little champion and his efforts in this current series. He is very much in the AB mould, and I'm pretty sure everyone who admires and praises Border will do the same for Shiv.

Phurt about Chanders: Until this series, a lot of Australian forummers called him an FTB.
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Post by peterg Wed 11 Jun 2008, 05:08

Charles [Z Score] Davis in 2000 ranked Border the 16th best batsman and Richards the 20th.

The cricket ratings system, now under the Reliance banner, provides a different story. Richards has a considerably higher peak rating and a larger proportion of his graph lies above the 750 mark. It puzzles me a little why Border did not rate better during his excellent period, roughly 1983 - 87.

In reality the comparison is classic chalk and cheese.
Richards was brilliant, arrogant to the point of hubris. Border was dogged. Richards could defend at need and Border could play shots right around the wicket. It's just that Richards rarely needed to defend and Border seldom felt he had the freedom to focus on strokeplay. By the time he had sufficient support to do do, he'd lost his fluency. They both played a little too long.

Besides their difference in style, the pair provide a good example of an inherent difficulty in making comparisons between great players. What weight do you give to peak periods as against whole of career? In the mid to late 70's Viv really did look as good a batsman as any since Bradman, possibly better than the others. In the 80's he came back to the field, whilst still very good and occasionally - only sporadically - as good as ever. On a larger scale, his trajectory resembles that of Gilchrist, although Richards had a more stuttering start.

Border occupies a special place in the hearts of Australians - and balanced cricket lovers elsewhere - because he was the embodiment of what the English might call the Dunkirk spirit. Leading perhaps the least didtinguished Australian side of the century he still fought and never gave up. Eventually, as more gifted players emerged, he turned it around. That's why Australians so much relish the memory of 1989. We had not been down for as long as England had been before 2005 but perhaps we were less used to it. It was Border's triumph.


Last edited by peterg on Wed 11 Jun 2008, 05:12; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Henry Wed 11 Jun 2008, 05:11

Paul Keating wrote:
Leo wrote:And frankly, some of the posts on here about hypocrisy re Chanderpaul are pathetic. No-one has had more good things to say about Shiv than me, and apart from some jocular remarks, most other Aussies have had nothing but praise for the little champion and his efforts in this current series. He is very much in the AB mould, and I'm pretty sure everyone who admires and praises Border will do the same for Shiv.

Phurt about Chanders: Until this series, a lot of Australian forummers called him an FTB.

Some of them are still calling him an ftb. He's not Australian, you see.....
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Post by G.Wood Wed 11 Jun 2008, 05:22

What do your clients do when you are flogging dead horses instead of them?
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Post by taipan Wed 11 Jun 2008, 07:14

[quote="G.Wood"]
Invader Zim wrote:I assume that means that all poms think like Merlin

They don't?
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Post by JGK Wed 11 Jun 2008, 07:52

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:


I was pretty spot on with my 65-70 guess for Viv! Whoo!

Is no-one interested in this list? :|


Took me bloody ages to find it.


Here is z-score's list:


http://www.sportstats.com.au/hotscore.html

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Post by G.Wood Wed 11 Jun 2008, 07:54

[quote="taipan"]
G.Wood wrote:
Invader Zim wrote:I assume that means that all poms think like Merlin

They don't?

The odd one or two likes sheilas
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Post by JGK Wed 11 Jun 2008, 07:59

Brass Monkey wrote:
freddled gruntbuggly wrote:

Results, considering opposition and personnel?

JGK wrote:
Re 3) - I have never seen that Viv was considered to be a good captain whereas Border is revered on this measure.

Obviously Border didn't have Viv's presence, style and flair but he was undoubtedly as effective.

shrug - Border, 93 Matches, 32 Wins. Viv - 50 Matches, 27 wins.

By my calculations that's 50 victories in 93 matches for Viv.


The comment on style etc was in relation to batting, not captaincy. Viv's captaincy revolved around asking Walsh, Patterson etc to do scissors paper rock to see who would partner Maco with the new ball.

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Post by JGK Wed 11 Jun 2008, 08:03

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:There's some gems on that Kallis vs Ponting thread that apply directly to this current argument. Instead of Kallis, read Border and instead of Ponting, read Viv.


Skully in response to Tom saying Ponting plays in a dominant team:


Oh dear Eric, you seem to have missed the point. Some of us argue that Ponting is better because he scores quicker (at a similar average) and therefore gives his team a greater chance of victory (you know, more runs in front, and more time to bowl the opposition out). After all, isn't the ultimate goal here to win Test matches? Or are you a red ink fan, Mr Airy Emu?

JGK again:


It's pretty simple, Kallis isn't feared by good opposition sides.

You're speculating that Kallis would increase his strike rate by 30% if he played in a better team. Who knows - his red ink hunting is pretty ingrained.


Special stuff.


FFS, why quote me in an unrelated argument with someone else? You do realise that the Australians on the board are separate people don't you?

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Post by Invader Zim Wed 11 Jun 2008, 08:07

FFS, why quote me in an unrelated argument with someone else?
Aye. Was doing my head in last night.
You do realise that the Australians on the board are separate people don't you?
Apparently we are all the same.
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Post by Merlin Wed 11 Jun 2008, 08:25

[quote="taipan"]
G.Wood wrote:
Invader Zim wrote:I assume that means that all poms think like Merlin

They don't?

PMSL .....
Band-waggoning again taips?
And with those two half-wit Aussies to boot ! affraid
jeez, you'll agree with anyone just so as to feel accepted!

But do carry on ...I'm honoured.

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Post by taipan Wed 11 Jun 2008, 08:50

[quote="Merlin"]
taipan wrote:
G.Wood wrote:
Invader Zim wrote:I assume that means that all poms think like Merlin

They don't?

PMSL .....
Band-waggoning again taips?
And with those two half-wit Aussies to boot ! affraid
jeez, you'll agree with anyone just so as to feel accepted!

But do carry on ...I'm honoured.

Beginning to sound like tac, if more than one person has a go at you.

Get some balls
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Post by Brass Monkey Wed 11 Jun 2008, 08:55

JGK wrote:The comment on style etc was in relation to batting, not captaincy. Viv's captaincy revolved around asking Walsh, Patterson etc to do scissors paper rock to see who would partner Maco with the new ball.

Aye Tugga was pretty wank too. Alls he had to do was lob the ball to McGillespie for 15 overs until Shane had whinged enough, then lob it to him.

The reason I mentioned captaincy is because the one-eyed dross-weasel said "AB was a better batsman than Viv because he was a better captain".
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Post by Merlin Wed 11 Jun 2008, 08:59

taipan wrote:

Beginning to sound like tac, if more than one person has a go at you.

Get some balls

They're big and bold taips - and I don't need a queen telling me to get "some"! Rolling Eyes

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Post by JGK Wed 11 Jun 2008, 09:01

Invader Zim wrote:
FFS, why quote me in an unrelated argument with someone else?
Aye. Was doing my head in last night.

I mean, it's flattering that my views seem to be considered the gospel on these issues...

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Post by taipan Wed 11 Jun 2008, 09:05

Merlin wrote:
taipan wrote:

Beginning to sound like tac, if more than one person has a go at you.

Get some balls

They're big and bold taips - and I don't need a queen telling me to get "some"! Rolling Eyes

So why are you sooking like a little girl with wet knicks?
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Post by Merlin Wed 11 Jun 2008, 09:17

taipan wrote:
Merlin wrote:
taipan wrote:

Beginning to sound like tac, if more than one person has a go at you.

Get some balls

They're big and bold taips - and I don't need a queen telling me to get "some"! Rolling Eyes

So why are you sooking like a little girl with wet knicks?
Laughing Not sooking you woosie - I just find it amusing that whenever there's a reference to 'merlin' ...
you're in there, like a rat to shit.
Never mind, carry on as usual .. you can't help who you are.

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Post by JKLever Wed 11 Jun 2008, 09:20

Invader Zim wrote:

Why LLL, JKL, Danny etc get so angry and indignant, resorting to all kinds of ridiculous generalisations about race, accusing people of being biased and then making hugely biased and bitter statements themselves, is beyond me.

WTF are you on about Timothy?
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Post by Invader Zim Wed 11 Jun 2008, 09:22

You can work it out. It's not in code.
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Post by JKLever Wed 11 Jun 2008, 09:25

Invader Zim wrote:You can work it out. It's not in code.

Sorry me old squinty eyed one - I never could work out bollocks, you'll have to help me here...
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Post by taipan Wed 11 Jun 2008, 09:30

Merlin wrote:
taipan wrote:
Merlin wrote:
taipan wrote:

Beginning to sound like tac, if more than one person has a go at you.

Get some balls

They're big and bold taips - and I don't need a queen telling me to get "some"! Rolling Eyes

So why are you sooking like a little girl with wet knicks?
Laughing Not sooking you woosie - I just find it amusing that whenever there's a reference to 'merlin' ...
you're in there, like a rat to shit.
Never mind, carry on as usual .. you can't help who you are.

No,if someone is a tosser so be it.

experiencing transference or have you got a persecution complex? Most short men have.
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Post by Lara Lara Laughs Wed 11 Jun 2008, 13:21

Can't see where I've been bitter or biased to be fair. I haven't at any point said that Border wasn't fantastic. I just don't believe that he was a few rungs above Viv and brought up the issue of strike rates to illustrate it.

Meh. I've never seen an Aussie rate Kallis equal to Ponting and probably never will. And I don't see any Aussies on this thread rating Viv equal to, or better than, Border. That caused me to bring up the issue of strike rates. I simply pointed out that it's pretty hard to believe Ponting is a much better player than Kallis because of his strike rate and at the same time believe that Border is a better player than Viv, ignoring the strike rates.

The quotes I used to represent "all of Australia" were mainly from JGK. Though he might not have said it, the suggestion is that he rates Border above Viv. It's pretty easy to sit there and say "he's using one opinion to sum up our country" while sitting on the fence. If you disagree that Ponting is better than Kallis, come out and say it. If you disagree that Border is better than Viv, come out and say it. I expect to see a flood of posts rating Viv the equal of or better than Border now then....

And whether you like it or not, a difference in strike rates of at least 18 (more than Ponting and Kallis) and probably quite a bit more is significant.
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Post by peterg Wed 11 Jun 2008, 13:42

I don't rate Border higher than Viv and did not say so, only that their differences makes comparison difficult and two statistical measurements had reached different conclusions.

There is another side to SR. Border's innings lasted correspondingly longer than Viv's. In a weak side, this could enhance prospects of saving, as opposed to winning, a Test. Again, they had the qulities demanded by the different strengths of the sides they adorned.

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Post by Brass Monkey Wed 11 Jun 2008, 13:46

A quality summation and your extensive one earlier was even better.

p.s. it's doubtful that LLL was including you in any of this.
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Post by PearlJ Wed 11 Jun 2008, 13:53

Lara Lara Laughs wrote:Can't see where I've been bitter or biased to be fair. I haven't at any point said that Border wasn't fantastic. I just don't believe that he was a few rungs above Viv and brought up the issue of strike rates to illustrate it.

Meh. I've never seen an Aussie rate Kallis equal to Ponting and probably never will. And I don't see any Aussies on this thread rating Viv equal to, or better than, Border. That caused me to bring up the issue of strike rates. I simply pointed out that it's pretty hard to believe Ponting is a much better player than Kallis because of his strike rate and at the same time believe that Border is a better player than Viv, ignoring the strike rates.

The quotes I used to represent "all of Australia" were mainly from JGK. Though he might not have said it, the suggestion is that he rates Border above Viv. It's pretty easy to sit there and say "he's using one opinion to sum up our country" while sitting on the fence. If you disagree that Ponting is better than Kallis, come out and say it. If you disagree that Border is better than Viv, come out and say it. I expect to see a flood of posts rating Viv the equal of or better than Border now then....

And whether you like it or not, a difference in strike rates of at least 18 (more than Ponting and Kallis) and probably quite a bit more is significant.

What does Ponting and Kallis have to do with this?
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