Re: South Africa reject tri-series proposal

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:20 am

Chandan wrote:
holcs wrote:Chandan, I shall post it one last time for you:

Chandan.

It is not Domestic as it does NOT FOLLOW YOUR OWN DOMESTIC FIRST CLASS STRUCTURE!

It is our domestic T20 as is Challenger trophy one day tournament because that doesn't follow any domestic FC structure as well

Your first class structure I am led to believ is the Ranji Trophy set-up. Therefore an Indian domestic T20 tournament would be one which involved the Ranji Trophy sides and those players that play in those sides.

We have FC structure in Ranji as well as Duleep trophy set up. We have Raji one dayers as well as zonal one dayers. But we have Challenger trophy too which is televised live every year and India best players represent it in three teams. Piyush Chawla was noticed in that first when he scalped Tendulkar. Every year it is played in ffont of full stadium and makes lots of money for BCCI.

The IPL on the otherhand is a made up tournament of purchased franchises, which was put together in for the sole purpose of making money. As it does not follow your own first class domestic structure, it is not a domestic competition, but a fabricated situation.

Like challengers are represented in three teams, IPL is represented in 8 teams sponsored/owned by different companies. But all 8 teams are under BCCI umbraella. And every tournament which is played under BCCI's umbrella is Indian domestic cricket. I hope it makes it clear now that a tournament can't be rejected as a domestic tournament if it makes money, be it T20 or one day!

Okay, as simply as possible...

The IPL teams are NOT Domestic teams as they are OWNED by Companies. They are in no way affiliated in any shape or form to any Domestic structure that you have at present.

The only affiliation they have is it is sanctioned by the BCCI.

All of your Domestic competitions follow a certain Domestic structure, the IPL does not.

It is solely a money making exercise and is in no way symbolic of anything in your Domestic structure and is therefore a NON-Domestic tournament!

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:22 am

Chandan wrote:
taipan wrote:
Chandan wrote:
holcs wrote:
Chandan.

It is not Domestic as it does NOT FOLLOW YOUR OWN DOMESTIC FIRST CLASS STRUCTURE!

Your first class structure I am led to believ is the Ranji Trophy set-up. Therefore an Indian domestic T20 tournament would be one which involved the Ranji Trophy sides and those players that play in those sides.

The IPL on the otherhand is a made up tournament of purchased franchises, which was put together in for the sole purpose of making money. As it does not follow your own first class domestic structure, it is not a domestic competition, but a fabricated situation.

Our domestic structure is on the basis of zones too.

A one day tournament called Challengers trophy between 45 best available players in India in three teams are also domestic cricket DESPITE NOT FOLLOWING ANY OF OUR FC STRUCTURE.

Didn't hear anyone object to that as well!

Because there are no bloody foreigners in it.

And why are county cricket domestic cricket despite having bloody foreigners in it?

Because Middlesex play the same side in the T20 as they do in the FCC or One-Day tourneys.

Because it follows our Domestic structure, and contains our Domestic sides.

IPL does none of that and is not Domestic!

by Chandan Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:22 am

If Challengers are domestic, so are IPL. Give me ANY reason to believe otherwise!

by Chandan Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:25 am

holcs wrote:
Chandan wrote:
taipan wrote:
Chandan wrote:
holcs wrote:
Chandan.

It is not Domestic as it does NOT FOLLOW YOUR OWN DOMESTIC FIRST CLASS STRUCTURE!

Your first class structure I am led to believ is the Ranji Trophy set-up. Therefore an Indian domestic T20 tournament would be one which involved the Ranji Trophy sides and those players that play in those sides.

The IPL on the otherhand is a made up tournament of purchased franchises, which was put together in for the sole purpose of making money. As it does not follow your own first class domestic structure, it is not a domestic competition, but a fabricated situation.

Our domestic structure is on the basis of zones too.

A one day tournament called Challengers trophy between 45 best available players in India in three teams are also domestic cricket DESPITE NOT FOLLOWING ANY OF OUR FC STRUCTURE.

Didn't hear anyone object to that as well!

Because there are no bloody foreigners in it.

And why are county cricket domestic cricket despite having bloody foreigners in it?

Because Middlesex play the same side in the T20 as they do in the FCC or One-Day tourneys.

Because it follows our Domestic structure, whether, and contains our Domestic sides.

IPL does none of that and is not Domestic!

So if we decide to include foreign players we have to ask ECB about how to run it? It is our body and we can play our domestic cricket any way we like. From next year on even Ranjis will have foreign players.

Will they be disqualified too because they didn't act as Middlesex or Essex did?

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:29 am

Chandan wrote:If Challengers are domestic, so are IPL. Give me ANY reason to believe otherwise!

This is the challenger Trophy:

NKP Salve Challenger Trophy
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In 1994-95, the Board of Control for Cricket in India BCCI introduced the Challenger series, an annual day-night one-day tournament, keeping in view India's one-day international commitments. The Challenger series is played with the purpose of show-casing the talent that the country has, as well as providing opportunities to younger players to make an impression. The tournament is played in October before the start of Ranji season.

From 1998-99 the tournament was known as the NKP Salve Challenger Trophy, named after former Board of Control for Cricket in India president NKP Salve - the man who brought the World Cup to the sub-continent in 1987. The tournament was not played in 2002-03

The annual tournament is played between three sides made up 36 of the best players in India. The three teams were India Senior and India A & India B. Team names were changed for the 2006 version of this tournament. India Seniors became India Blue and India A and India B became India Red and India Green, respectively. India Senior have won 7 times including the 2005-06 edition.

The Challenger Series gained popularity in the 2005-06 edition as it featured the comeback of Sachin Tendulkar from injury. He lost his wicket to 17-year-old Piyush Chawla.

This is a tournament made up for the sole purpose of show casing Indian Talent highlighted in your Domestic structure.

It is therefore a tournament based on performances in your Domestic Structure, these players then get selected to play in this elite domestic tournament - Irrespective of which team a player is in

However the IPL is nothing but teams owned by companies, to make money. It has NO LINK to anything in your Domestic Structure.

Do you understand this now?

by Merlin Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:32 am

Give it up Chas!

by JKLever Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:38 am

Not really sure what you guys are on about tbh scratch

If franchise cricket was set up in England with new teams and overseas players under the umbrella of the ECB it would still be domestic cricket.

by Chandan Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:41 am

holcs wrote:
Chandan wrote:If Challengers are domestic, so are IPL. Give me ANY reason to believe otherwise!

This is a tournament made up for the sole purpose of show casing Indian Talent highlighted in your Domestic structure.

It is therefore a tournament based on performances in your Domestic Structure, these players then get selected to play in this elite domestic tournament - Irrespective of which team a player is in

However the IPL is nothing but teams owned by companies, to make money. It has NO LINK to anything in your Domestic Structure.

Do you understand this now?

IPL players also get chosen on their performances . And each team hires a players accoring to its strategy. If it was not besed on performance, how do you think they could have chosen out of 380 FC players that we have in Ranji?

Without performance in domestic tournaments, no player can get selected.

JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE OWNED BY THE COMPANIES DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT DOMESTIC TEAMS!

by Chandan Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:42 am

JKLever wrote:Not really sure what you guys are on about tbh

If franchise cricket was set up in England with new teams and overseas players under the umbrella of the ECB it would still be domestic cricket.

That is what I'm trying to explain to them JKL. IPL is the only T20 tournament India has for its domestic cricket till last year.

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:43 am

Chandan wrote:
holcs wrote:
Chandan wrote:If Challengers are domestic, so are IPL. Give me ANY reason to believe otherwise!

This is a tournament made up for the sole purpose of show casing Indian Talent highlighted in your Domestic structure.

It is therefore a tournament based on performances in your Domestic Structure, these players then get selected to play in this elite domestic tournament - Irrespective of which team a player is in

However the IPL is nothing but teams owned by companies, to make money. It has NO LINK to anything in your Domestic Structure.

Do you understand this now?

IPL players also get chosen on their performances . And each team hires a players accoring to its strategy. If it was not besed on performance, how do you think they could have chosen out of 380 FC players that we have in Ranji?

Without performance in domestic tournaments, no player can get selected.

JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE OWNED BY THE COMPANIES DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT DOMESTIC TEAMS!

*bangs head profusely against wall*

It is solely non-domestic as I state again:

1. It follows nothing to do with your domestic structure in any way shape or form.
2. It is owned solely by companies and these companies are in no way related to anything in your domestic structure.

= Non Domestic.

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:44 am

Chandan wrote:
JKLever wrote:Not really sure what you guys are on about tbh

If franchise cricket was set up in England with new teams and overseas players under the umbrella of the ECB it would still be domestic cricket.

That is what I'm trying to explain to them JKL. IPL is the only T20 tournament India has for its domestic cricket till last year.

JK it would certainly not be a solely domestic structure. It would be a tournament sanctioned by the ECB, buit would have no links to our domestic game or structure as we stand now.

It would solely be a money making exercise based in England.

by JKLever Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:48 am

If it's run by the ECB it would be domestic cricket. Just the same as if suddenly we decided to disband the counties and set up franchise T20 as was mooted could happen.

IPL is the Indian T20 domestic comp - doesn't matter to me if they are new teams or not, other countries have formed new teams than those that have existed previously

shrug

by Chandan Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:50 am

Hols,

Now I feel like banging my head!

1.Structure of IPL is different: Structure of Challenger is is also different.
2. It is owned by companies which are under BCCI umbrella, as are state associations under BCCI umbrella or zonal teams under BCCI umbrella or challengers team under BCCI umbrella
3. Just because a domestic tournament makes money doesn't mean it is non domestic.

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:50 am

JKLever wrote:If it's run by the ECB it would be domestic cricket. Just the same as if suddenly we decided to disband the counties and set up franchise T20 as was mooted could happen.

IPL is the Indian T20 domestic comp - doesn't matter to me if they are new teams or not, other countries have formed new teams than those that have existed previously

We'll have to agree to disagree, as I don't view the IPL as a Domestic Tourney, nor would I class any franchised based tourney muted here as Domestic, as it does not mirror the domestic competition of that country.

It is a Franchise tournament, not a Domestic tournament.

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:52 am

You guys seem to miss the basic fact, that a Domestic tournament, no matter whose umbrella it is under is a tournament that mimics or is made up from the domestic structure of that country.

Any other franchise tournament with the only link being it is okayed by the board so it can make them cash is a Franchise Tournament and not a Domestic tournament.

by Chandan Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:53 am

holcs wrote:
JKLever wrote:If it's run by the ECB it would be domestic cricket. Just the same as if suddenly we decided to disband the counties and set up franchise T20 as was mooted could happen.

IPL is the Indian T20 domestic comp - doesn't matter to me if they are new teams or not, other countries have formed new teams than those that have existed previously

We'll have to agree to disagree, as I don't view the IPL as a Domestic Tourney, nor would I class any franchised based tourney muted here as Domestic, as it does not mirror the domestic competition of that country.

It is a Franchise tournament, not a Domestic tournament.

Holcs, whether you agree or disagree. It is our domestic tournament. And T20s were originally formed to attract crowd and make money by ECB. That is what IPL is doing very efficiently.

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:55 am

Chandan wrote:
holcs wrote:
JKLever wrote:If it's run by the ECB it would be domestic cricket. Just the same as if suddenly we decided to disband the counties and set up franchise T20 as was mooted could happen.

IPL is the Indian T20 domestic comp - doesn't matter to me if they are new teams or not, other countries have formed new teams than those that have existed previously

We'll have to agree to disagree, as I don't view the IPL as a Domestic Tourney, nor would I class any franchised based tourney muted here as Domestic, as it does not mirror the domestic competition of that country.

It is a Franchise tournament, not a Domestic tournament.

Holcs, whether you agree or disagree. It is our domestic tournament. And T20s were originally formed to attract crowd and make money by ECB. That is what IPL is doing very efficiently.

No disputing that point, its still never going to be a domestic tournament when it has no links to your domestic structure at all.

by Chandan Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:56 am

holcs wrote:You guys seem to miss the basic fact, that a Domestic tournament, no matter whose umbrella it is under is a tournament that mimics or is made up from the domestic structure of that country.

Any other franchise tournament with the only link being it is okayed by the board so it can make them cash is a Franchise Tournament and not a Domestic tournament.

And I wonder why have you not picked it up as yet. 7 Indian players chosen from Indian domestic cricket tournament other than IPL are chosen in each team. How is there no link then? Where have the players come from?

by JKLever Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:56 am

holcs wrote:You guys seem to miss the basic fact, that a Domestic tournament, no matter whose umbrella it is under is a tournament that mimics or is made up from the domestic structure of that country.

Any other franchise tournament with the only link being it is okayed by the board so it can make them cash is a Franchise Tournament and not a Domestic tournament.

Just semantics really IMO.

Any comp that isn't international is domestic. SA has franchise cricket made up of former FC teams doesn't it?

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:59 am

JKLever wrote:
holcs wrote:You guys seem to miss the basic fact, that a Domestic tournament, no matter whose umbrella it is under is a tournament that mimics or is made up from the domestic structure of that country.

Any other franchise tournament with the only link being it is okayed by the board so it can make them cash is a Franchise Tournament and not a Domestic tournament.

Just semantics really IMO.

Any comp that isn't international is domestic. SA has franchise cricket made up of former FC teams doesn't it?

Aye perhaps it is. But if we had had the mooted EPL, it would not have been a domestic comp. Just a comp that took place in England IMO. It is more aptly name non-international cricket in that instance.

They are sponsored yes, but based on the FC states - hence completely linked to their base domestic structure.

by Chandan Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:05 am

And what makes you think that IPL teams are not linked with the state associations? How are Sehwag Gambhir, Dhawan etc playing for Delhi as well as Delhi daredevil? How are Sachin, Rahane etc playing for Mumbai as well as Mubai Indians? How are Dravid, Kumble, Joshi etc playing for Karnataka as well as Bangalore too? Yuvraj, VRV, etc play for Punjab as well Kings Xi Punjab as well?

Where do you not find a link? Please tell me.

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:09 am

Chandan wrote:And what makes you think that IPL teams are not linked with the state associations? How are Sehwag Gambhir, Dhawan etc playing for Delhi as well as Delhi daredevil? How are Sachin, Rahane etc playing for Mumbai as well as Mubai Indians? How are Dravid, Kumble, Joshi etc playing for Karnataka as well as Bangalore too? Yuvraj, VRV, etc play for Punjab as well Kings Xi Punjab as well?

Where do you not find a link? Please tell me.

They are only playing there because they are purchased by those franchises, they are not there because that is their domestic team. It just happens that that franchise wanted their services.

There is NO LINK whatsoever because Sehwag could just have easily been bought by Chennai - assuming he wasn't the nominated player for that franchise.

by Chandan Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:16 am

holcs wrote:
Chandan wrote:And what makes you think that IPL teams are not linked with the state associations? How are Sehwag Gambhir, Dhawan etc playing for Delhi as well as Delhi daredevil? How are Sachin, Rahane etc playing for Mumbai as well as Mubai Indians? How are Dravid, Kumble, Joshi etc playing for Karnataka as well as Bangalore too? Yuvraj, VRV, etc play for Punjab as well Kings Xi Punjab as well?

Where do you not find a link? Please tell me.

They are only playing there because they are purchased by those franchises, they are not there because that is their domestic team. It just happens that that franchise wanted their services.

There is NO LINK whatsoever because Sehwag could just have easily been bought by Chennai - assuming he wasn't the nominated player for that franchise.

Puchesed or contracted! Even the counties give contract to their players, don't they?And players in county cricket NEVER change their counties do they?

Gilly started playing for NSW but couldn't find a place there in the XI amd moved to WA. Should we disqualify Shield cricket as domestic cricket then because having played his formative years in NSW, Gilly finally got a contract from WA?

by holcs Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:20 am

Chandan wrote:
holcs wrote:
Chandan wrote:And what makes you think that IPL teams are not linked with the state associations? How are Sehwag Gambhir, Dhawan etc playing for Delhi as well as Delhi daredevil? How are Sachin, Rahane etc playing for Mumbai as well as Mubai Indians? How are Dravid, Kumble, Joshi etc playing for Karnataka as well as Bangalore too? Yuvraj, VRV, etc play for Punjab as well Kings Xi Punjab as well?

Where do you not find a link? Please tell me.

They are only playing there because they are purchased by those franchises, they are not there because that is their domestic team. It just happens that that franchise wanted their services.

There is NO LINK whatsoever because Sehwag could just have easily been bought by Chennai - assuming he wasn't the nominated player for that franchise.

Puchesed or contracted! Even the counties give contract to their players, don't they?And players in county cricket NEVER change their counties do they?

Gilly started playing for NSW but couldn't find a place there in the XI amd moved to WA. Should we disqualify Shield cricket as domestic cricket then because having played his formative years in NSW, Gilly finally got a contract from WA?

Thats very different scenario to that of the IPL. That is a movement within the Doemstic structure in Oz, Eng, SA where ever.

The IPL Purchased players from a pool. Those sides that were responsible in the auction process for bidding are side with no links to anything in your domestic structure.

Completely different.

IPL is non-international cricket, it is not a domestic competition.

by JKLever Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:21 am

holcs wrote:
Chandan wrote:And what makes you think that IPL teams are not linked with the state associations? How are Sehwag Gambhir, Dhawan etc playing for Delhi as well as Delhi daredevil? How are Sachin, Rahane etc playing for Mumbai as well as Mubai Indians? How are Dravid, Kumble, Joshi etc playing for Karnataka as well as Bangalore too? Yuvraj, VRV, etc play for Punjab as well Kings Xi Punjab as well?

Where do you not find a link? Please tell me.

They are only playing there because they are purchased by those franchises, they are not there because that is their domestic team. It just happens that that franchise wanted their services.

There is NO LINK whatsoever because Sehwag could just have easily been bought by Chennai - assuming he wasn't the nominated player for that franchise.

Does it matter though? Any board has the right to run cricket in its country the way it wants to. If it falls under the banner of the home board it's domestic. Which is why the ICL is a rebel league.

I've got a lot of problems with IPL and I think it's the biggest danger to cricket for years but describing it as domestic ain't one of them! Wink

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